Getting Better at Routefinding

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123tqb
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Getting Better at Routefinding

Post by 123tqb »

Getting into Class 4-5 alpine scrambling and climbing fairly recently, I am finding that my routefinding skills are seriously lacking. Looking back I can tell how some of my mistakes were made (not looking at the map carefully enough, not reading the full route description, etc.), but some of my mistakes I really just can't put a finger on. How did you guys become proficient at routefinding, or alternatively how did you practice? I want to be as safe a climber as possible and looking ahead, at my current pace, I find routefinding to be my fatal flaw.
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Re: Getting Better at Routefinding

Post by dwoodward13 »

The best way to get better at route finding is to keep doing routes that require route finding.

You can also go with someone who is a good route finder and take the lead, but have them give you their input too so you can see what they see differently, what they are looking for, their map/gps usage techniques, what they are looking for in a slope ect.
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Re: Getting Better at Routefinding

Post by cheechaco »

I learned a lot from an older hiking/climbing partner about route finding first. Now I climb with someone who is not so experienced. We rarely have issues route finding because we communicate, A LOT! Continually through the day. We still make mistakes here and there but we discuss the what and why and where we should have gone. Debriefing after every outing is super helpful too. Even if you're solo you can mentally debrief your day.
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Re: Getting Better at Routefinding

Post by daway8 »

Ditto the above - route finding is a bit like swimming - you can learn a few concepts about it by reading but you won't ever actually learn to swim without jumping in the water.

I've had the same struggle - got way too lazy with GPX files, abundant beta, etc. Something I've started doing recently that's really been growing my route finding skills by leaps and bounds is to find some 13ers without a lot of beta, look at just enough data from others to make sure I'm not walking into something way over my head, and then go out there and basically wing it with the map and my eyes (I use GAIA with the slope angle overlay downloaded, amongst other things). Satellite view also helps a lot in certain cases.

I take tons of photos which I annotate on the fly and study them afterwards together with the map to see what I could have done better (I'm working on a couple trip reports now which more or less followed this pattern).

Of course this recommendation is not for someone just getting started in the mountains but if you're getting into class 4-5 alpine scrambling, and seeing you've done some ski descents, etc, I'm guessing you have your basic survival skills figure out already.

A handy skill is to take multiple photos of the same general area from different distances and angles then try to match up the same feature in each. Landmarks are enormously helpful for route finding but it can take a little effort sometimes to pick out the tiny details that clue you in to matching up images from far away and close-up (I've been getting lots of great practice with that as I'm writing up my Garfield-Red traverse and trying to figure out how I could have done that better).

One last tip that I've been resistant on until just recently is to look over the photos and maps of a route that you struggled with and then go redo it. As you study the map and/or photos at home then go try to redo it, you learn quickly what works and doesn't.

I wouldn't call myself proficient yet but I'm improving day by day and so I figured I'd pass along a long rambling reply of what I'm learning in case it helps.
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SeanAlfred
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Re: Getting Better at Routefinding

Post by SeanAlfred »

Start climbing a lot more class three routes, especially the ones that are known to have tougher route finding. Be on the lookout for faint animal trails, crampon scratches, worn rocks. Visually plan your route as much as possible on the approach, picking out key features in the rock ahead. But just putting mileage in leading the way and being observant of your surroundings is probably the best advice I could give
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Re: Getting Better at Routefinding

Post by bergsteigen »

I started getting better at route finding by just glancing over route descriptions/TR’s and then going out and visually choosing the route. I knew the ridge went, but I didn’t know the exact *how*. That meant that when I was up there I would have to find the right/best way on my own. When it comes to finding the class 4 route within the 5, then it becomes more serious and requires the old adage of never climb UP something, you can’t get down.

I love efficiency, so I’m always looking for the best way up a mountain. Solid scramble >>> scree shite.

Practice, practice, practice!

(Download the route description to your phone as backup, but don’t look at it unless you get lost)
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Re: Getting Better at Routefinding

Post by Aphelion »

The best way to get better at something is a lot of successful practice, or practice failing in a way that generates actionable feedback. Others have suggested going with someone better than you, and then leading them, which is a great idea. It may also be helpful to look for what exactly your points of failure are: are you screwing up at a micro level (where do I go for the next 20 ft) or the macro level (is my line on the ridge crest, or along the face)? To use a common example of the "standard" class 3 descent off of Crestone Needle, are you more likely to drop down the wrong gully, or pick the right initial route and then miss the crossover? Those are two different failures that may benefit from different training approaches.
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DeTour
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Re: Getting Better at Routefinding

Post by DeTour »

I've had a few principles rattling around in my head for a while, been meaning to consolidate them to a post - I guess this is a good thread to throw out a draft. Preface them by stating [1] I'm not very good at routefinding myself - my eyes have a hard time picking out details like cairns; and [2] I learned pretty much all the "rules" below the hard way. So here are DeTour's Rules for Routefinding. Many probably exist in similar forms in guidebooks, instruction manuals, or other dlimbing resources, but the below are truly my personal observations, with a couple exceptions noted:

If you don't know what you'll see at the top of that headwall you're climbing - plan on seeing another headwall.

That gully you're looking down that looks from above like it'll drop right into the basin - nuh-uh, it cliffs out. If it did drop in it would be the standard route.

If you're cruising along a nice established trail and it seems to unexpectedly peter out to nothing, turn around and look behind you. They're called switchbacks.

Cairns are like people - the vast majority just want to be helpful, but there are a few damn liars mixed in, and it's hard to know which which ones are the liars until you're already sucked into their problems.

If you know there should be an established trail near you but you can't find it, go up. Much easier to spot from above than below. Except -

Cairns silhouetted against the sky are a gift from God.

If you think you're on a path to intersect a trail that runs perpendicular to your direction, slow down, keep scanning right and left obsessively. It's easier than you think to blow right past the trail you're trying to intersect, without recognizing it. Just ask all those people who blew past Kit Carson Avenue coming down from the summit.

When climbing a ridge route, if in doubt, go the the ridge. Solid ridge > loose rubble trail around the side of the mountain almost every time.

Solid ridge also > loose gully almost every time.

If you are climbing a gully and it's split by a rib of rock, and you're not sure which fork to take, see above. Maybe the answer is neither. Take a good look at just climbing that rib of rock. It's probably more solid, more fun, maybe faster, and if you do belong in one of the gully branches, good chance you'll be able to figure out which one from that rib.

The mountain is always bigger than you think (definitely not my original, but it just belongs in here.)

Always remember the No Joke Route rules:
Image

I'm sure there are more that I'm not thiking of right now. Others may want to add some, or maybe disagree with some of mine. Have at it.
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Re: Getting Better at Routefinding

Post by Jorts »

Aphelion wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:27 pm are you screwing up at a micro level (where do I go for the next 20 ft) or the macro level (is my line on the ridge crest, or along the face)?
That's insightful. I rely more on gps for big picture route finding and less so for picking through ledge systems/gullies/ribs. If I'm in a drainage looking up at several similar ribs and gullies that all look like they'll go I'll confirm the correct one with gps or a map but once on the general route, just figure out the path of least resistance from there.
DeTour wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 9:31 pm I've had a few principles rattling around in my head for a while
Great guidelines. Like the 14er skier alluded to, the golden rule is don't climb up anything you can't climb down (UNLESS YOU'RE CERTAIN IT GOES).
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Re: Getting Better at Routefinding

Post by Kiefer »

123tqb wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 1:20 pm Getting into Class 4-5 alpine scrambling and climbing fairly recently, I am finding that my routefinding skills are seriously lacking. Looking back I can tell how some of my mistakes were made (not looking at the map carefully enough, not reading the full route description, etc.), but some of my mistakes I really just can't put a finger on. How did you guys become proficient at routefinding, or alternatively how did you practice? I want to be as safe a climber as possible and looking ahead, at my current pace, I find routefinding to be my fatal flaw.
This has to be one of my favorite questions I've read on this site! =D>
As Otina said, the key to proficient route-finding is practice, pure & simple.
Expect to make some mistakes and start off by delving into topo maps and learning how to read the terrain and how that transpires from topo maps. The comparison isn't always perfect. Having 40' intervals, leaves a lot of room for error. And crags, spires, loose rock/hardpan of course won't be part of that. That's where you just have to get out there and practice. Get to know what certain ranges in general are like; what the San Juan's are like, the Sawatch, The Uinta's, Beartooth's etc.

Probably 70% of my experience has been from solo trips and the other 30% has been with others, but more or less forced to take lead. For me, it's been mostly the solo stuff that has proved beneficial as you're forced to rely on yourself to find the way. You learn how to read the terrain: trees, ways the rock/crags fall off or blend into the slope/ridge, animal passages from bent grass or multiple hoof prints in the soil, comparing ridges with one another and deducing what the ridge or slope you're on will do. This all takes years of practice. It's NOT an overnight process. Long ago, I made it a point to intentionally "get lost." I would frequently leave the trail and make my own way. But you HAVE to scrutinize and read the terrain as you do this to understand the topography. Understanding how and why class-1 trails are made the way they are also helps. I haven't used GPS or GPX tracks in....maybe 15 years?? I still don't. I'll look at a topo map of where I'm going and that's really about it.
If I take an electronic device with me, it's because I'm knowingly heading into confusing terrain (desert steppe, open desert, low shrub oak). Then I'll plot my path. Otherwise, such devices are just crutches that are hurting your honing abilities, IMO.
Having a ton of summits under ones belt isn't a mark of a proficient mountaineer. I know folks who all they do are 14ers. And I wouldn't trust their judgement in getting me from Ouray to Nellie Creek going cross-country (which you can). Knowing how to read the terrain and guide yourself out when conditions get bad and not stress about it, is.
Practice, practice, practice! :)
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Re: Getting Better at Routefinding

Post by mtree »

Sorry to say, but either you're really good at it or you're not. You can get better with practice, but you'll never be great. Just one of those things. Kinda like math.

Going with someone - especially FOLLOWING them - does little. You learn nothing. That's THEIR logic, not yours. And following them is akin to following a trail. Mindless.
Going with a buddy or group, great for route finding. But do you learn anything? No. Just a good way to break down a route... hopefully.
Taking multiple pictures, etc. Useless. How does THAT teach you route finding? It just helps you navigate without having to think with you're mind. Like reading a map with pics.

The only way to learn is to actually do it yourself. See what works for you. Hopefully you'll get better. If not (and there's no shame in that) rely on great photos, maps, GPS, etc. to get you where you need to go. After all, getting up and back is the end result. If you're not a great route finder just accept it for what it is. I'm sure there are other things you're great at. After all... "a man's has got to know his limitations."
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Re: Getting Better at Routefinding

Post by Aphelion »

mtree wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:51 am Sorry to say, but either you're really good at it or you're not. You can get better with practice, but you'll never be great. Just one of those things. Kinda like math.

Going with someone - especially FOLLOWING them - does little. You learn nothing. That's THEIR logic, not yours. And following them is akin to following a trail. Mindless.
Going with a buddy or group, great for route finding. But do you learn anything? No. Just a good way to break down a route... hopefully.
Taking multiple pictures, etc. Useless. How does THAT teach you route finding? It just helps you navigate without having to think with you're mind. Like reading a map with pics.

The only way to learn is to actually do it yourself. See what works for you. Hopefully you'll get better. If not (and there's no shame in that) rely on great photos, maps, GPS, etc. to get you where you need to go. After all, getting up and back is the end result. If you're not a great route finder just accept it for what it is. I'm sure there are other things you're great at. After all... "a man's has got to know his limitations."
I gotta strongly disagree most with this. Routefinding is a skill, and like all other skills, it can be improved given effort over time and an at least half-decent plan. Sure, some people will be born with more innate talent than others, but that's no excuse to just give up if you aren't handed greatness on a silver platter.

Going with someone else is a great way to get better. If they're better than you, you can ask them their chain of reasoning for their decisions. If they're of a similar skill level to your own, you can both figure it out together. In either of those cases you can opt to take the lead, with the understanding that the other person will act as a backup if they think you're getting too far off. If the other person is less skilled, then the best way to learn something is to teach it, so get to showing them what you know, and that will reinforce your own knowledge and force you to be more on your game, hopefully leading to better outcomes. All of these fall under the umbrella of 'more practice succeeding.' Sure, if all you do is hang back, turn off your brain, and stare at the pack in front of you, you won't learn anything. But that's a problem with you, not the method.

Taking pictures isn't really my thing, but it may be helpful if your issue is sticking to a pre-decided line. Routes look different up close than they do from a distance, so having both perspectives in hand at once can be a useful tool for some people. Having a learning aid to help keep track of where you are from a different point of view is not useless for learning unless you refuse to use it to learn.

All of these things you disregard are ways of "actually doing it yourself." If you aren't getting better with practice, it's because you're either not putting in work leading the way as much as you think you are, or you are not correctly identifying and focusing on your points of failure. And if you don't care/like enough about it to do that, fine. It's your priorities to triage. But don't pretend that it's impossible just because you didn't put in the work.

It's also pretty weird to lump stuff like using a map with 'not great at routefinding,' maps are one of the basic navigational tools.
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