When do you carry an ice axe?

[mtree]

I haven't carried one in years. When I did, it just looked cool hanging on my pack like I was a REAL mountain climber.

I don't bring it anymore because its not necessary. I stay away from questionable terrain and only hike familiar areas. Trekking poles or micro spikes is all I ever need in winterish conditions. There's a few places that can warrant using one if conditions are optimal, but I find spikes and poles more effective. And I glissade (butt-sled) all the time. But I know my line, snow conditions, and run-out before I jump. I guess there's always a chance of a pointy rock lurking beneath the surface, but its a risk I'm willing to take.

If you choose to bring an axe, you better know how to use it. Otherwise, you're just showing off.

[Been_Jammin]

I have glissaded plenty using a trekking pole to brake. The steepest/longest being the saddle between Castle and Conundrum. Anything steeper/longer than this common glissade I would want an axe.

Fun to hear others opinions and attitudes on risk.

[Boggy B]

We have a continental snowpack meaning it’s thin with little hard pack cohesion. Unless you’re intentionally seeking out an ice route your chances of encountering a hard pack steep slope until about April or May are pretty remote.

With respect, this is just patently false. Wind slab is a common avalanche problem in Colorado, and it's not at all unusual to encounter steep hard slab with bad runout along ridgelines in the winter, regardless of avalanche conditions.

Sorry, think my nomenclature was garbage there. I meant cohesion as in melt-freeze, knife hard snow like you find in a maritime or even intermountain snowpack - places where I think an ice axe in midwinter is more appropriate and useful. I didn't mean we don't get hard windslabs.

I'm a skier so granted my approach may be different, but I just don't find an ice axe and crampons to be worth it in the winter. Save them for spring. If you're going on a route where you know you're going to have bulletproof conditions, sure... pack it, but I wouldn't just carry an ice axe for every random winter outing above treeline.

I don't want to presume too much, but based on your own admission, I think more winter experience would change your opinion on this. Certainly, there have been many days where my axe stayed on my pack, and I frequently glissade in crampons or just with a pole brake (with the axe on my pack). But the activity that prompted this thread is winter mountaineering in unknown terrain. I can't count the number of times I've needed to cross the top of a chute with a cornice on the lee side and bulletproof slab on the windward side. With just an axe you can dispatch such features in a short minute, or you can burn a bunch of time trying to bypass them, or you can go home, or you can just YOLO across and take your chances at an incredibly pointless death. Often this is the only time the axe is used all day, and it's still worth carrying.

[Jorts]

I wouldn’t glissade with crampons on. I’d guess I probably have hundreds of winter ski days above treeline. I’ve never regretted not having an axe. Even hard wind scoured snow as you describe is just so dry compared to spring snow.

Here is why I choose not to carry a piolet in winter:
1) The snow is dry and brittle - whether fist hard facets or pencil hard wind affected snow. You should not use pickets in an upright, non-deadman fashion in our snowpack in the winter for the same reason I do not use an axe.
2) Dry hard snow is not the same as wet hard snow. It’s just not as slick in character.
3) Avalanches. I’m not climbing steep snow in winter. When we get mid-winter stability, it’s generally because the base weak layer isn’t so weak and the strong layer above caps the weak layer without tipping to critically loading it. The skiing is marginal but even firm chalky snow doesn’t make me worry about slide for life conditions.

Everyone has personal preference and comfort levels. What you described crossing a gully Boggy is not something I’d be concerned about 99% of the time. But if I were, I’d prob bring an axe. Most above treeline ridges in midwinter have one face windscoured to rock and another face fully loaded. And most of the time you can use that stripped face without the comfort of an axe.

Anyone have a record of any glissanding or slide for life accidents in Colorado between the months of December and February?

[Boggy B]

Fair enough. I calibrated to your statement that you don't venture much into steeper terrain in the winter. I find that such terrain is not uncommon when cruising winter ridges (generally the safest place to be). It's true that convex terrain is often scoured while all the snow is pushed and sculpted into concavities, particularly at the ridge crest and especially around notches, and localized wind and weather produce further variability. In the winter months this snow is of completely different character from how these features evolve into the spring skimo season when you can comfortably boot across after the sun's been out for a few hours--instead dry, hard, and not at all brittle.

I've had partners take rides in this type of snow in lower-consequence terrain, due to slips while either not having an axe handy, or planted. A few of these instances involved terrifying ragdolling that looked like it would turn out badly, but thankfully the results were no worse than cuts and bruises.

[Scott P]

Jorts: We have a continental snowpack meaning it’s thin with little hard pack cohesion. Unless you’re intentionally seeking out an ice route your chances of encountering a hard pack steep slope until about April or May are pretty remote.

Boggy B: Certainly, there have been many days where my axe stayed on my pack, and I frequently glissade in crampons or just with a pole brake (with the axe on my pack). But the activity that prompted this thread is winter mountaineering in unknown terrain. I can't count the number of times I've needed to cross the top of a chute with a cornice on the lee side and bulletproof slab on the windward side.

I guess I can see both viewpoints as having validity, but with some adjustment and exceptions.

I'd lean towards Jort's viewpoint in early (calendar) winter (and even more so late October to early December) and I'd lean towards Boggy B in later (calendar) winter.

In March I have seen conditions similar to what Boggy B on many occasions. I have seen such conditions only occasionally in February and very rarely in January (maybe only once I can think of). In December I can't recall any such conditions, but then that doesn't mean they aren't present.

There are notable exceptions though. From what I gather, peaks like Longs (I haven't climbed Longs in winter) seem to get bad icing or bulletproof snow through the winter and near winter.

Also in the early season you can encounter new snow over the old last winter season's snow. That is definitely ice axe territory.

Those are the perhaps some of the most common exceptions, but many exist. Even in Colorado the mountain conditions aren't even close uniform and seasons and climates vary from one range to the next.

In Colorado, some mountain areas have their snowiest months in March and April, while in others it is in December and January. Some ranges have wetter or drier conditions than others and some receive a lot more wind than others. All of that does have an effect. Different climate conditions definitely affect what conditions you can run into on any given day in winter.

[justiner]

There are notable exceptions though. From what I gather, peaks like Longs (I haven't climbed Longs in winter) seem to get bad icing or bulletproof snow through the winter and near winter.

Depends on the route of course, but the ice that forms on Longs is mostly a late Fall thing for routes on the lower east face. Certainly ice routes open now in the Park, but it takes a real specific set of circumstances. I mean there's ice on Lookout Mountain (Golden) rn too. But you're usually not going to find a ton of ice on Keyhole, or Trough (except for a small flow near the ledges), or even the North Face in winter.

Saying that, I'll personally carry an axe all winter long, and will break it out before I even don crampons. I wish I had a longer axe though, as it's ultimately being used a a trekking pole 90% of the time. The snow is the same powdery hoar frost + wind slab nightmare as you'll find in other places.

[desertdog]

I have a ultra light Blue Ice Axe. It just stays on my pack in the snow months. I also leave spikes in my pack. Why not? They don’t weigh much and you never know if you will need them. If I’m doing something more substantial in snow I’ll switch them out for crampons and a Petzl Summit axe.

[pvnisher]

Whenever I think I might need to Hero Pose on the summit.

[Wildernessjane]

Whenever I think I might need to Hero Pose on the summit.

So basically all the time then?

[Tornadoman]

I am really conservative in winter usually just doing peaks that are gentle slogs, so don't carry an axe that often. If I feel there is a chance I might bring it I carry it along (Example this winter: La Plata- brought axe as the headwall looked steep, although it was fine with a pole). I carry it more often in the spring when either doing easy couloirs or other spots where I feel I might encounter firm snowfields. Some would feel fine with a pole in many of these spots, but I find an axe to be more secure and to match my conservative risk tolerance. Overall, I am much more likely to carry an axe in April to June than in calendar winter.

[BillMiddlebrook]

Of course. On or near steep snow, bring the axe or at least a whippet. Glissading moderate or steep snow, it’s reckless not to have one.

These tools are no longer heavy.

Just because you don’t end up using it doesn’t mean it was a good idea not to bring it.