Testing Rocks while Climbing

[greenonion]

I decided to begin a new thread for this, instead of using the Capitol Peak fatality version where I originally made my comment. Someone very appropriately corrected me in a PM and I would like to share...

It's better to thump each (potentially suspect) hold with the butt of your hand prior to grabbing it. It will make a very distinctive sound when solid versus loose/not-so-solid. The latter being a dead, sometimes hollow or even crunchy sound. Whereas a solid hold will sound solid. Best not to grab a non-solid hold at all, whether pulling down, outward, or whatever.

I certainly do not mean to come across as an expert on this, because I'm not. The pulling down advice was given to me years ago and has always made sense, but supplementing that action with a test thump first only makes sense, and I should have included that originally. Do thump carefully, however. I don't mean to open a can of worms here, and I only intend safer outcomes with this. Please further correct or clarify if I have left anything open to dangerous interpretation.

Thank you to the person who sent me the PM.

[justiner]

I'll also lovingly kick a foothold if I'm not certain it'll take my weight (especially when downclimbing). If it moves, that's not good.

It's an inexact science, but unfortunately a lot of the Class 3/4 routes in Colorado are pretty chossy. Chossy terrain is chaotic and unpredictable, except that it's more or less never going to get more solid, only less.

I hate to harp on this idea, but taking a rock climbing course - even indoors, is only going to develop more of your skills. One of them being: put as much weight as you can on your feet. On easier terrain, the times you need to pull yourself up should be real minimal. Use your hands to provide stability and move up (stand up!) with your feet. I can do bodyweight squats all day, but I've only got about 15 pullups in me. Even on very steep terrain, this concept applies. Center of gravity should be over your feet. Your feet work well spreading your weight over a wider area.

I don't know what happened here on Capitol, but it has proven itself a dangerous mountain. Much of that danger seem to be from poor route finding trying to avoid exposed sections where the rock is relatively solid (the knife edge) and while negotiating loose terrain (I'm thinking of that terrible rock fall on K2). I get real nervous when reading the, "avoiding the knife edge on Keslo" thread, as the top of that knife edge is relatively solid, which is objectively a sure thing to count on. Finding loose sneakarounds Class 3 terrain is not what you want to reinforce as a technique.

Anyways, stay safe out there. Practice those skills.

[TomPierce]

I'll echo Mr. Green and Justin on technique tips. Having done some chossy stuff on remote peaks I'll add another tip: Traffic on a route tends to clean it up, the loose stuff generally is lower on a route with a decent amount of traffic. I recall an attempt on Lizard Head in the 90's, it was horrifically loose, stuff the size of refrigerators could be moved with a single hand. Going back and doing it years later (after the boom in internet route descriptions and thus way more traffic) it was much more solid, pretty solid by my standards. My point: If you get off route you may be on virgin terrain, or at least very lightly traveled terrain. The number of loose blocks and hand/footholds will skyrocket. Your 14er skills may not have adequately prepared you for such terrain. If you even think you are off route, consider backtracking to the last known route intersection and maybe try a different/better/known route? Retreat & reconsideration is always an option. I can't stress enough that offroute or terrain that sees little to no traffic is a different animal, dangerous ground indeed. Tread cautiously, if at all.

My opinions.

-Tom

[RhodoRose]

I get real nervous when reading the, "avoiding the knife edge on Keslo" thread, as the top of that knife edge is relatively solid, which is objectively a sure thing to count on. Finding loose sneakarounds Class 3 terrain is not what you want to reinforce as a technique.

This.

[SchralpTheGnar]

The more skills you develop on rock the more you want to seek the solid 4th class, even low 5th, on Longs yesterday we were able to avoid most of the loose stuff in the trough by climbing the low angled slabs to the side, much more enjoyable but without the skills no way you’d think that was a good idea.

Definitely plus one getting climbing experience even in a gym.

[pvnisher]

I'll take solid, steep, and exposed over loose and chossy every single time.

It's the unpredictable nature of it, and not knowing if even a low angle step is going to slide and roll.

[painless4u2]

The "pull down and not out" for rock holds seems to be a little puzzling, such as when you consider a child pulling downward on a heavy chest of drawers toppling it over on themselves. The "base" is firmly stable, yet a force applied to the top outer edge of the object would cause that object to rotate outward.

[greenonion]

The "pull down and not out" for rock holds seems to be a little puzzling, such as when you consider a child pulling downward on a heavy chest of drawers toppling it over on themselves. The "base" is firmly stable, yet a force applied to the top outer edge of the object would cause that object to rotate outward.

I agree that your drawer example is more along the lines of pulling out than straight down into an anchored base. But, respectfully, I can't completely align that example with testing rocks. The chest of drawers doesn't easily translate to a mountain ledge or rock holds in my mind. My original intent was simply to try and ensure your hold is securely anchored, and pulling out on rocks is more risky than pulling down. And the thump test should also be carefully used as well.

Justin and Tom, especially, conveyed things well. Use legs more, while testing footholds too, and while trying to stay on route (not to oversimplify).

[daway8]

So here are my two cents but with only a handful of class 5 routes under my belt I could be totally wrong so by all means chime in to correct me if this is not a good method...

When I'm in some lesser traveled region or even free-forming a path in unfamiliar terrain (like I did this weekend in the upper section of the West Ridge Direct variant for Little Bear) I tend to do a very gentle little wiggle of any suspect hold first without any weight at all being put on that hand - if I feel it start to move at all then I stop, make sure it's going to stay put and then avoid touching that again.

If the first gentle wiggle seems solid and I'm in a position where I'm about to have to put my full body weight on it, then I'll grab it and give it a good hard wiggle before trusting my weight to it.

If it's high consequence terrain (like when I needed to take one brief step out on an extremely narrow, insanely exposed ledge to get around an obstacle) then I'll do the above plus also then weight it with about half my body weight first and if it's still holding then go ahead and put my full weight on it.

The tapping method just doesn't seem quite reliable enough to me though I've definitely noticed the effect - usually for me though it's when I step on something and it sounds weird then I try to immediately retract or reposition my weight away from that rock.

[Conor]

I've never really tapped rock when scrambling. It's a practice when placing gear that if the rock sounds hollow to find another place to slot something. I'm not sure I've been in what people would call loose rock, perhaps mohling or mayflower have been the worst I have been in. But, I remember on mayflower I was trying to move efficiently and smoothly (what I strive for in my climbing). At one point, I think I picked my foot up and then a rock fell.

All this is to say, it is a technique and art. People can spray step by step instructions in trip reports all they want, but at the end of the day one needs to be well practiced to be safe. I remember listening to Conrad Anker talk about how you want to be like a car cruising the interstate at 2000 rpms. You do not want to be cruising with the tachometer pegged and when you need a little more there isn't any more to give.

I know Justin doesn't want to harp on it, but I will. The best and safest thing people can do for scrambling is technical climbing - indoor, cragging, multipitch it doesn't matter. And I'm not even that great of a climber...but I can have a lot of fun in the winter meeting friends at the climbing gym.

stay safe out there.

[daway8]

...I was trying to move efficiently and smoothly (what I strive for in my climbing).

Curious as to what exactly is in your mind when you say "move efficiently"? To me that brings to mind (especially together with your car analogy) moving quickly. Maybe I'm just not experienced enough yet but that's usually the last thing I want to do if I'm unroped in high consequence class 4 or 5 terrain.

Certainly smooth movements and definitely don't push yourself to your limits outside the gym but I'll take safety over speed any day on the mountain.

Perhaps just semantics or maybe I'm just misunderstanding what you mean...

Anyways, 100% agree on getting lots of practice - I would never have considered some of the stuff I've done lately without spending a lot of time figuring out technique in the gym first.

[justiner]

The "pull down and not out" for rock holds seems to be a little puzzling, such as when you consider a child pulling downward on a heavy chest of drawers toppling it over on themselves. The "base" is firmly stable, yet a force applied to the top outer edge of the object would cause that object to rotate outward.

Rock is very very strong when compressed - right? Whole mountains stand up, since the rock at the bottom of the mountain can withstand the force of all the rock about it. Even loose, chossy rock compressed together when you apply a force to it in generally a downward force. That's how we can hike up talus fields. You find places to walk where you compress the rock below you, rather that teetor-totter off the face.

The problem is like you've stated: at a steep angle and on loose terrain, if you grab a hold to pull down, you're not compressing the rock against another, you're sheering it away. Just like your heavy chest of drawers. So what else do you do?

Think of some of the cruxes of the loose Maroon Bells, that are overcome in dihedrals and chimneys. One thing you can do is stem your feet out to apply force into the wall. That gets around applying sheering force. Even on more reasonable terrain, people will slip going up simply because they don't have more of their weight centered over their feet. I was on Bear Peak in Boulder yesterday and passed about 3 butt scooters going down that didn't understand this concept - and this was on a trail!

But there are instances where you can't do that (or another) technique - that's when you need to think about if the chossy terrain is even worth climbing. If every rock is at the angle of repose, then it's risky. A lot of moraine-type material is found at the angle of repose. Heck, a lot of the standard route of Capitol is found at the angle or repose - there's just been loose social trails winding through it to more solid rock. The route constantly shifts around as loose rocks go flying as people kick loose. How is this OK? Just because this is what the path done on the first ascent? There's reasonable solid rock on the ridge itself. Yes, additional skills other than "hiking" are involved to negotiate it. But why not attain those skills?

Part of me worries that there are people who would much rather "have had done the 14ers" then "do the 14ers" and will take these risks of getting into loose, sketchy terrain and just roll the dice to get through it without incident then learn some skills to have in their personal toolset. And for the most part, it does works out for them without incident.

It's feels like real bad ju ju to even talk about this, since I'm on very loose sketchy terrain it seems more often than not and one day I may have a bad accident, which could be used to discount everything I've stated. The ridgeline between say: Massive and Indy Pass following the Continental Divide is certainly a master class in Choss Negotiation. To be clear: I don't want to be good at climbing choss; I want to be good at both avoiding wanting to climb choss and knowing how to spot climbing that may be more solid, if a little more exposed/technical. You often find that many choices present themselves.