Sleeping Bags and Winter Camping

[Snow_Dog_frassati]

Somehow I don't feel like I've seen a lot of threads on winter camping here but maybe I just haven't been around long enough.

What do y'all think is an appropriate sleeping bag temperature rating for Colorado? I'm considering a Western Mountaineering 5° bag as an in-between for my -25 and my 20°. I have had fantastic experiences with westie as far as warmth and build quality but I'm curious what others use

Right now the plan for my core gear items is a Black Diamond/Bibler Eldorado tent, the Westie and a 50L touring pack from Mammut. I'll primarily be doing overnight ski tours.

[JaredJohnson]

https://support.enlightenedequipment.co ... ro-camping

In winter I bring my 20f down quilt and my partner's 30f synthetic quilt and layer them, works like a charm

Equally or more important is the sleeping pad, which long story short, needs to be a neoair xtherm and nothing else (:

[Wildernessjane]

It depends on the overnight temps, obviously, but in general I found even a zero degree bag to not be warm enough. After a conversation with a friend about the potential downsides of wearing too many layers inside the sleeping bag, I finally caved and bought a -20 Western Mountaineering bag for winter. That said, I do not think sleeping bag ratings are all created equal. Some seem to be more “survival” rated versus “comfort” rated. Western Mountaineering and Feathered Friends seem to be really good in this regard but they are spendy. I feel like my 15 degree WM bag is warmer than my zero degree Montbell bag, which is on the older side. You can also just try using a sleeping bag liner to increase the warmth rating of your 20 degree.

[JQDivide]

Don't forget about the sleeping pad.
Get one with a good R rating.
Or double up with a solid foam pad.

Joel

[daway8]

I feel like my 15 degree WM bag is warmer than my zero degree Montbell bag, which is on the older side.

Curious if that's due to differences between the manufacturers or to the one bag losing it's warmth over time?

I've heard various opinions on how long sleeping bags last (5-10 years vs 20-30, etc). Obviously usage and care can make a big difference but my understanding is that all bags slowly lose their warmth rating over time.

Curious what people on here have found in that regards...

[druid2112]

My winter bags are rated 0 and 6 (I know, weird, right?). I have found them both to be perfectly adequate, and I use a three-season tent for winter camping.

[Scott Conro]

I feel like my 15 degree WM bag is warmer than my zero degree Montbell bag, which is on the older side.

I've heard various opinions on how long sleeping bags last (5-10 years vs 20-30, etc). Obviously usage and care can make a big difference but my understanding is that all bags slowly lose their warmth rating over time.

Curious what people on here have found in that regards...

OP, this might also be relevant for excursions where you're not willing to lug the -25 degree bag.

I've been using the Marmot Never Summer 0 degree (650 fill, 3lbs, 3oz) for 2.5 years and 210-230 sleeps. I paid the same as current retail, about $270. I'm not a gear junkie by any means, but I'll share what this bag has been through and how it's holding up.

I used it for 40 days on the Appalachian Trail in winter. I remained warm enough during most nights on a short Z Lite pad. When it got down to low 20s, I was a bit cold (this was usually in the three-sided structures found along the trail, sleeping on a wooden floor, and usually protected from the worst of the wind). I used the Sea to Summit Reactor bag liner for the first few weeks (1lb) and that helped me stay good and warm down to about 15 degrees (remember, this is with the most basic pad). I sent the liner home when I decided I'd suffer a bit of cold to save a pound.

I used the same bag when I lived out of my truck the next winter in the Arkansas Valley. I slept on a futon mattress in the back of my truck and stayed warm all winter with that bag. I layered with the Sea to Summit Reactor bag liner when it got to about 23 degrees. When it got to about 13 or 14 degrees, I'd layer with a Katabatic 20 degree quilt. Usually just wore a top and bottom base layer, and on the cold nights put on a secondary top layer. With the added 20 degree quilt, the only time I was cold was the night it got to about -17 degrees. I did notice, however, that toward the end of this period I wasn't staying as warm in the 20-30 degree range as I had been. I'll add to this in a minute.

Last September I started a project tenting once a week for a year in Illinois (I just hit 52 weeks last night!). I noticed the bag wasn't keeping me as warm in late fall (mid 20s). Definitely needed the second bag (the Katabatic 20 quilt) once winter arrived and temps were usually 5-12 degrees at night.


It lost its warmth from the constant back and forth I do sleeping on my sides. It shuttled the down from the center of the baffles to the sides and clumped them together. I've brought the bag to the laundry mat a handful of times in the last year to fluff the bag in the dryer, using tennis balls to break up the clumps. I'd get some modest improvement in loft, but after one night the down would be back at the edges (any advice on further maintenance would be welcome!).


This became an issue in early March when I spent two weeks on the Appalachian Trail in Shenandoah. The first couple nights were fine, then temps dropped and holes in down coverage made for some brutally cold nights.

For me this bag was worth well worth the $270 paid. I never sleep better than when I'm wrapped up in it. I think with the right sleeping pad and tent, this bag would be good for many adventures and hold up very well for a while, maybe 150 nights (more with better down maintenance?) But I'm not sure I'd rely on it for middle of winter expeditions that rely on a different degree of safety and warmth.

[dwoodward13]

I feel like my 15 degree WM bag is warmer than my zero degree Montbell bag, which is on the older side.

Curious if that's due to differences between the manufacturers or to the one bag losing it's warmth over time?

I've heard various opinions on how long sleeping bags last (5-10 years vs 20-30, etc). Obviously usage and care can make a big difference but my understanding is that all bags slowly lose their warmth rating over time.

Curious what people on here have found in that regards...

Yes I've had that experience. I had a Marmot Hydrogen 30 deg for the last 6 years now, spending maybe 30-40 nights a year in it. I would typically wash it at the end of each season using specialty down wash, tennis balls, ect. Its comical how unlofty it has become, even after a fresh wash. There were some feather leakage during its life, but nothing I would call abnormal. I had one trip in Vestal Basin in late September where I was wearing every layer I had and was still freezing cold. Brand new, that bag would have kept me comfortably warm in base layers. I've since upgraded to a WM bag (highly recommended!), but use the Marmot as my car camping bag to keep some unnecessary wear off the WM. I also use a bag liner now to reduce washings. I do wonder if I washed the Marmot bag too much, contributing to its quick demise.

From a Big Agnes Rep:

Down feathers are basically proteins that break down over time,” Johnson says. Unfortunately, there’s no exact science for determining when your bag will bust. “Higher quality downs, which hold loft well, break down quicker, so a 900 fill down bag will become essentially a 700 fill down bag within a few years from normal use. It won’t have that same warmth rating after a couple years of use.”

https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-g ... gs-expire/

[Scott P]

It depends on how cold it is as not all winter nights are equal. I have found that even a high quality 0 degree bag is really cold at -20. On such nights when I had my -40 bag, I was glad I did. This year I used my 0 degree bag at -13 and admit that I was uncomfortable.

Anyway, just in case anyone is curious, here are the coldest temps I have camped in for each month of the year in Colorado and surrounding states.

https://www.summitpost.org/overnight-te ... ies/186172

[Conor]

It depends on the overnight temps, obviously, but in general I found even a zero degree bag to not be warm enough. After a conversation with a friend about the potential downsides of wearing too many layers inside the sleeping bag, I finally caved and bought a -20 Western Mountaineering bag for winter. That said, I do not think sleeping bag ratings are all created equal. Some seem to be more “survival” rated versus “comfort” rated. Western Mountaineering and Feathered Friends seem to be really good in this regard but they are spendy. I feel like my 15 degree WM bag is warmer than my zero degree Montbell bag, which is on the older side. You can also just try using a sleeping bag liner to increase the warmth rating of your 20 degree.

Warmth is created by loft. Fill power is the number of cubic inches one ounce of the down will fill. So, a 600 fill power bag can be just as warm as 900 fill power, it will just weigh approx 1/3 more.

Western Mountaineering publishes their loft on their website. If buying a bag from another manufacturer, one should compare to the WM charts. I know there is some certification, but I trust wm over the cert.

Basically, everyone uses the same weight material. So the only way a manufacturer can make a bag lighter over a wm bag is by making the bag smaller, cutting out material (e.g. a "quilt'), or selling you a bag with less loft but claiming it has the same temp rating.

And I agree with the pad recommendation. Buy the xterm or whatever has the highest r value. It is the best investment for staying warm every season. It is one of the three luxury items I carry.

[pvnisher]

Just learned that the high quality down loses it's loft faster then lower loft.
That sucks.

I have a fair pile of 800 and 900 fill items, probably well on their way to being 7 or 600 by now.

[SchralpTheGnar]

I have a -5 walrus bag that I’ve camped in -30 temps and stayed warm, that was 20 years ago with those max low temps, or min low if that makes more sense and still have the bag to this day, interestingly on that super cold night we were on mount Columbia and had skied in to another 11k and started up the next morning to the summit. After about 3 hours we’d rated all of our food and had to turn back, around 13k. Never before had if experienced the feeling of consuming and burning calories instantly, weird stuff