Fenn's treasure

[Phill the Thrill]

To insinuate that Fenn is responsible for the deaths of others is a ridiculous conclusion.

Well, you might find it interesting to learn that there's but-for causation and proximate causation. Two different ways of viewing the cause of an event. Under the but-for test, Fenn is absolutely responsible for the deaths. Now, could have the deceased taken steps to be more responsible for their own safety? Certainly.

What is the act of negligence on Fenn's part?

[DArcyS]

Hmm...I respectfully disagree, D'Arcy. If we look at this as a wrongful death issue, i.e. a legal tort, the issue isn't causation but rather whether a legal duty exists. An issue of law versus fact. IMO Mr. Fenn does not owe a legal duty to those who seek his treasure. Think of it this way, using a climbing analogy: I say Peak X is the coolest climb in the world, ya gotta climb it, and I just climbed it via the south ridge. I provide no other details. Joe Couch Potato goes after the south ridge and falls to his death. I have dangled a prize (a coveted summit) to the public, and told them where to go find the prize. But I have no idea if anyone will seek the prize, and I don't tell them specifically how to go about getting the prize. Can I be sued? I think not.

Not to mention the obvious equitable defense: Assumption of the risk. Fenn has said only the treasure is somewhere in the Rocky Mountains. He hasn't said exactly where (duh...), so people decide on the state, the specific locale, and the means and methods to reach that locale. Cross a river? Your choice, but understand that crossing wild rivers is risky and death may follow.

People can obviously pick the adventure they choose, and unless a legal duty is owed (e.g. a guiding service, a summer camp for kids, etc.) liability should not follow even though risk is there and death possible.

Just my opinions, of course.

-Tom

Hey Tom, there were two aspects associated with my post -- negligence and fraud. Yeah, the negligence argument is weaker. Regarding the duty of care and your example, I can think of a spectrum where on one extreme we have statements/conduct that are the private, informal chit-chat of an individual and on the other extreme we have statements/conduct associated with an event organizer for a public and formal contest. For the former, which is your example, no legal duty exists, while for the latter people sign liability waivers because of the legal duty. So, where does Fenn fall within the spectrum? (Which, as an aside, perhaps the Forest Service could bring an end to the contest by claiming he doesn't have a permit to conduct his "event" on public lands.)

The legal duty, yeah, I hear you. But with fraud, which is based upon Fenn saying he hid a treasure but no such treasure exists and people die in search of nothing, I would hope the law would catch up with such an individual. And my original post was in half jest -- sue for fraud, force discovery, and what do you know, you have a discovery! But the other half of the post is not in jest if the contest was fraudulent.

There's also the issue of winning a lawsuit and not being sued at all. Recently the folks who run Mile High Stadium were sued by the family whose member fell about 60 feet to their death while attending a Broncos' game. Hmm, what kind of person needs a warning to be careful or other protective measures under such circumstances? Well, I guess the one who decides to sit on the railing believing he won't lose his balance. Regardless of the merits, people can always sue. I wonder if Fenn has liability insurance for this contest. Given the crazy lawsuits we hear about, I wouldn't be surprised if Fenn ends up in court.

[DArcyS]

To insinuate that Fenn is responsible for the deaths of others is a ridiculous conclusion.

Well, you might find it interesting to learn that there's but-for causation and proximate causation. Two different ways of viewing the cause of an event. Under the but-for test, Fenn is absolutely responsible for the deaths. Now, could have the deceased taken steps to be more responsible for their own safety? Certainly.

What is the act of negligence on Fenn's part?

Dunno. But you know all those stupid warnings for idiots that you see on products? If Fenn published his poem without warning people that searching for his treasure might be dangerous or lead to a loss of life, well, maybe that wasn't such a good idea. That's why Bill has such a warning at the bottom of 14ers.com trip reports.

[painless4u2]

*Minding common sense in the mountains is good savvy (Posted March 18th, 2016)
*Be mindful of nature and your health, but not in that order. f (Posted July 15th, 2016)
---Weekly Words From Forrest Fenn on The Thrill of the Chase

I would say he has covered himself pretty well for liability. Can't fix stupid.

[XterraRob]

I don't think very many people understand what personal responsibility is anymore, atleast not in America. It's easier to blame others.

[DArcyS]

I don't think very many people understand what personal responsibility is anymore, atleast not in America. It's easier to blame others.

It's also about money. The fellow who fell at the Broncos' game left behind a wife and five kids, so I get why they filed. But I sure wish the fellow would have given some thought to the risk he was taking first, but then again, he might have been high as a kite or drunk as a skunk.

[peter303]

Can extend these baseless moral arguments about negligence to a complete prohibition of climbing 14ers. Ten die and a hundred injured each year climbing them. While at it, sue the guidebook and website authors for goading them on. No one has has any personal responsibility anymore. Legal system solves all problems.

[Tory Wells]

A treasure seeking casualty:
http://www.9news.com/news/local/he-swam ... /460813929

[Somewhat of a Prick]

A treasure seeking casualty:
http://www.9news.com/news/local/he-swam ... /460813929

There have been several, hasn't there?

[Tory Wells]

A treasure seeking casualty:
http://www.9news.com/news/local/he-swam ... /460813929

There have been several, hasn't there?

The article mentions a pastor that died looking for it, not sure if there are more.

[iebgener]

I don't think very many people understand what personal responsibility is anymore, atleast not in America. It's easier to blame others.

How do I "like" comments on here?

We are headed towards a total and complete Nanny State.

[painless4u2]

^^^+1 That's how!