Weather

[polar]

I experienced mild static in my hands and on my helmet. I dumped my pack on the ground quickly, descended a few feet below the ridge, crouched, extracted my trekking pole and threw it away (opportunity: 20 yr old trekking pole, free to anyone, on the ridge going up to Drift peak), took off my helmet and stowed it in my pack (and then felt my limited hair standing on end). Then we hustled down the ridge in crouched posture.

Just curious, at what time of the day did this happen?

[timewarp01]

Is there any guidance (not wild guesses) for when to bail off a ridge due to risk of lightening? Or if it is best to avoid or go onto snowfields when an electrical storm is in progress?

After 30+ years and 100+ summits I've only experienced static from a storm twice, but this past weekend when it happened it motivated me to at least look into more info. I was descending on a ridge with about 45 min of travel time still needed. I could easily bail off one side but did not want to (because it was loose) or know how far to go down. I experienced mild static in my hands and on my helmet. I dumped my pack on the ground quickly, descended a few feet below the ridge, crouched, extracted my trekking pole and threw it away (opportunity: 20 yr old trekking pole, free to anyone, on the ridge going up to Drift peak), took off my helmet and stowed it in my pack (and then felt my limited hair standing on end). Then we hustled down the ridge in crouched posture.

I've heard that a pole might actually reduce strike risk based on the electromagnetic effect. I was surprised that a plastic helmet brought on more static but my physicist son said any sphere can cause that. But is static a sure indicator that it is serious time? Maybe small static discharges are reducing the risk?
I'm assuming that traveling in a squat posture is prudent. But I don't know if traveling to get at the end of the ridge quickly itself is ill advised or if I should have bailed off the ridge and waited or risked the loose hillside traverse.

I'm guessing there is no real science or experience can help with this it's worth asking the community. I don't suppose there is anyone that has tried a variety of strategies and observed (and survived) results.

So a couple things with this: Firstly, most hiking poles are made of non-ferrous metals that have little or no ability to carry or conduct charges at all. Plastic is good at building up small charges but not in any significant quantity. Second, you and the gear you are carrying will not have any effect on where and when lightning is going to strike; even if you were covered in iron armor the conditions that produce ground-to-air lightning strikes are orders of magnitude larger than anything a single person could affect. The presence of static is indeed a bad sign, as it could indicate that charges on or near you are drawing towards a discharge location, but that usually happens over a pretty wide area so it doesn't mean you're about to get struck. Small static discharges are, once again, far too small-scale to change where lightning will strike. The location of a strike depends on a lot of factors, and it doesn't necessarily hit the highest point. A good way to visualize where lightning might strike is to imagine rolling a giant 60-meter sphere around the terrain, and seeing where it touches. This is because the general location of the bolt depends on the clouds, and the strike starts coming down toward the ground from the sky. It's only when the head of the strike is within 60 meters or so of the ground that ground charges affect the direction of the strike's movement. So it's definitely a good idea to get away from an exposed ridge, but you're still not totally safe. You mainly just don't want to be out alone on a flat surface (even if that surface is slanted); if you can get into a good-size ravine or between some larger structures you have a better chance of not being struck. That being said, nearby strikes will still send dangerous currents through the ground, which is why the crouched posture is used. You want to squat away from other people and touch your heels together so that if a ground current does hit you, it will travel up one foot, cross at the ankle, and go down the other. If your heels aren't touching, the current could cross your heart instead and cause real problems.

If you'd like more info on how lightning decides where to strike, this is a good article to start with that explains the '60-meter ball' thing: https://what-if.xkcd.com/16/

All of this goes to say, don't worry about your gear making you more or less of a lightning rod. Focus on getting away from spots with a lot of prominence and try to get below treeline as fast as possible in an electric storm.

[cottonmountaineering]

Is there any guidance (not wild guesses) for when to bail off a ridge due to risk of lightening? Or if it is best to avoid or go onto snowfields when an electrical storm is in progress?

After 30+ years and 100+ summits I've only experienced static from a storm twice, but this past weekend when it happened it motivated me to at least look into more info. I was descending on a ridge with about 45 min of travel time still needed. I could easily bail off one side but did not want to (because it was loose) or know how far to go down. I experienced mild static in my hands and on my helmet. I dumped my pack on the ground quickly, descended a few feet below the ridge, crouched, extracted my trekking pole and threw it away (opportunity: 20 yr old trekking pole, free to anyone, on the ridge going up to Drift peak), took off my helmet and stowed it in my pack (and then felt my limited hair standing on end). Then we hustled down the ridge in crouched posture.

I've heard that a pole might actually reduce strike risk based on the electromagnetic effect. I was surprised that a plastic helmet brought on more static but my physicist son said any sphere can cause that. But is static a sure indicator that it is serious time? Maybe small static discharges are reducing the risk?
I'm assuming that traveling in a squat posture is prudent. But I don't know if traveling to get at the end of the ridge quickly itself is ill advised or if I should have bailed off the ridge and waited or risked the loose hillside traverse.

I'm guessing there is no real science or experience can help with this it's worth asking the community. I don't suppose there is anyone that has tried a variety of strategies and observed (and survived) results.

So a couple things with this: Firstly, most hiking poles are made of non-ferrous metals that have little or no ability to carry or conduct charges at all. Plastic is good at building up small charges but not in any significant quantity. Second, you and the gear you are carrying will not have any effect on where and when lightning is going to strike; even if you were covered in iron armor the conditions that produce ground-to-air lightning strikes are orders of magnitude larger than anything a single person could affect. The presence of static is indeed a bad sign, as it could indicate that charges on or near you are drawing towards a discharge location, but that usually happens over a pretty wide area so it doesn't mean you're about to get struck. Small static discharges are, once again, far too small-scale to change where lightning will strike. The location of a strike depends on a lot of factors, and it doesn't necessarily hit the highest point. A good way to visualize where lightning might strike is to imagine rolling a giant 60-meter sphere around the terrain, and seeing where it touches. This is because the general location of the bolt depends on the clouds, and the strike starts coming down toward the ground from the sky. It's only when the head of the strike is within 60 meters or so of the ground that ground charges affect the direction of the strike's movement. So it's definitely a good idea to get away from an exposed ridge, but you're still not totally safe. You mainly just don't want to be out alone on a flat surface (even if that surface is slanted); if you can get into a good-size ravine or between some larger structures you have a better chance of not being struck. That being said, nearby strikes will still send dangerous currents through the ground, which is why the crouched posture is used. You want to squat away from other people and touch your heels together so that if a ground current does hit you, it will travel up one foot, cross at the ankle, and go down the other. If your heels aren't touching, the current could cross your heart instead and cause real problems.

If you'd like more info on how lightning decides where to strike, this is a good article to start with that explains the '60-meter ball' thing: https://what-if.xkcd.com/16/

All of this goes to say, don't worry about your gear making you more or less of a lightning rod. Focus on getting away from spots with a lot of prominence and try to get below treeline as fast as possible in an electric storm.

Neat article - one of my coworkers was struck by lightning, he was near a traditional barb wire fence with the metal posts and it jumped over to him from a T-post.

I dont know if it makes a difference, but ive chucked my (aluminum) trekking pole far away during some electrical storms as a precaution

[Wentzl]

The vast majority of the first many peaks I climbed in summers back in the 90's were done mostly late afternoon, after the the afternoon storms. I would wake up at 10am or later, usually later, start hiking at noon or later, run up to treeline smoking cigarettes by 2pm or later, then wait for all the other hikers to run down the mountain escaping lightning, then the storm would clear by 3 or 4pm and I would head up to the top. Summit alone by 5-6pm then down before the sun set or watch the sunset on the top. But I was a young dude living in Leadville in the 90's, that should speak for itself. Disclaimer...don't do that, don't follow my poor example, start at like 2am or earlier.

except for the smoking cigarettes part, this method has always worked well for me too. I live by it to this day. 3:00 a.m. starts are for exotic mountains in foreign countries. Be patriotic. hike in sunlight!

[pfiore1]

except for the smoking cigarettes part, this method has always worked well for me too. I live by it to this day. 3:00 a.m. starts are for exotic mountains in foreign countries. Be patriotic. hike in sunlight!

Ha! Well, I was young with lungs of steel and assumed I would forever. I also quit that toxic smoke a decade ago, one of the smartest decisions I've made. I thought it was fun as a kid when I saw a struggling climber above me, then spark a cig and start running passed them. Now at 40 I wish I still had those 18 y/o lungs. But, I too, still climb post storm to this day during monsoon season. But again, disclaimer, don't do that, start at 0200.

[ronbco]

about 11:30am...we left the peak at 10:20, but it's a slow ridge from Fletcher to Drift (an hour) and then another hour down a ridge from Drift Peak to Mayflower gulch. We saw the storm starting at about 10:15 perhaps 40 miles away. It moved fast.

[ronbco]

great info! thank you!

Is there any guidance (not wild guesses) for when to bail off a ridge due to risk of lightening? Or if it is best to avoid or go onto snowfields when an electrical storm is in progress?

After 30+ years and 100+ summits I've only experienced static from a storm twice, but this past weekend when it happened it motivated me to at least look into more info. I was descending on a ridge with about 45 min of travel time still needed. I could easily bail off one side but did not want to (because it was loose) or know how far to go down. I experienced mild static in my hands and on my helmet. I dumped my pack on the ground quickly, descended a few feet below the ridge, crouched, extracted my trekking pole and threw it away (opportunity: 20 yr old trekking pole, free to anyone, on the ridge going up to Drift peak), took off my helmet and stowed it in my pack (and then felt my limited hair standing on end). Then we hustled down the ridge in crouched posture.

I've heard that a pole might actually reduce strike risk based on the electromagnetic effect. I was surprised that a plastic helmet brought on more static but my physicist son said any sphere can cause that. But is static a sure indicator that it is serious time? Maybe small static discharges are reducing the risk?
I'm assuming that traveling in a squat posture is prudent. But I don't know if traveling to get at the end of the ridge quickly itself is ill advised or if I should have bailed off the ridge and waited or risked the loose hillside traverse.

I'm guessing there is no real science or experience can help with this it's worth asking the community. I don't suppose there is anyone that has tried a variety of strategies and observed (and survived) results.

So a couple things with this: Firstly, most hiking poles are made of non-ferrous metals that have little or no ability to carry or conduct charges at all. Plastic is good at building up small charges but not in any significant quantity. Second, you and the gear you are carrying will not have any effect on where and when lightning is going to strike; even if you were covered in iron armor the conditions that produce ground-to-air lightning strikes are orders of magnitude larger than anything a single person could affect. The presence of static is indeed a bad sign, as it could indicate that charges on or near you are drawing towards a discharge location, but that usually happens over a pretty wide area so it doesn't mean you're about to get struck. Small static discharges are, once again, far too small-scale to change where lightning will strike. The location of a strike depends on a lot of factors, and it doesn't necessarily hit the highest point. A good way to visualize where lightning might strike is to imagine rolling a giant 60-meter sphere around the terrain, and seeing where it touches. This is because the general location of the bolt depends on the clouds, and the strike starts coming down toward the ground from the sky. It's only when the head of the strike is within 60 meters or so of the ground that ground charges affect the direction of the strike's movement. So it's definitely a good idea to get away from an exposed ridge, but you're still not totally safe. You mainly just don't want to be out alone on a flat surface (even if that surface is slanted); if you can get into a good-size ravine or between some larger structures you have a better chance of not being struck. That being said, nearby strikes will still send dangerous currents through the ground, which is why the crouched posture is used. You want to squat away from other people and touch your heels together so that if a ground current does hit you, it will travel up one foot, cross at the ankle, and go down the other. If your heels aren't touching, the current could cross your heart instead and cause real problems.

If you'd like more info on how lightning decides where to strike, this is a good article to start with that explains the '60-meter ball' thing: https://what-if.xkcd.com/16/

All of this goes to say, don't worry about your gear making you more or less of a lightning rod. Focus on getting away from spots with a lot of prominence and try to get below treeline as fast as possible in an electric storm.

[mountain_man]

Second, you and the gear you are carrying will not have any effect on where and when lightning is going to strike; even if you were covered in iron armor the conditions that produce ground-to-air lightning strikes are orders of magnitude larger than anything a single person could affect.

Good post. Because lightning appears so random, I'm generally inclined to follow the "get the hell out of there" mentality when faced with it. Move safely, don't get injured, reduce your exposure in terms of both terrain and chance of lightning.

"Ironically", as long as you had a really good thermal insulator between you and the iron armor, the armor would be a lifesaver since the current would run around, and not through you. Although, we all know real mountaineers make their treks in titanium armor. It doesn't protect you as much, but it sure is a heck of a lot lighter.

[ronbco]

the link to the video did not work for me

But I found this nifty calculator for the lightning shadow https://www.desmos.com/calculator/hji6ajvmw7
Obviously I won't be accessing a calculator in the moment so I am just going to try to remember the following rough estimate: ideally I want to be at the edge of the "shadow" so I reduce the risk of injury from the current traveling across the ground after the strike...so IF the ring of rocks or trees is 60' (20m) tall then I'd like it to be 75' from me to that ring. Said another way I'm looking for a ring of objects 60' above the plane I'm on (regardless if it is a slope) and 75' away.
If the magical ring of trees/rocks are a paltry 30' tall then I might be safe if I can be 45' from them.

and of course crouch and put my heels together

someone please check my work!

[bosnian2014]

https://www.climbing.com/skills/learn-t ... lightning/
I find this risk reduction diagram usefull. Especially the ravine listed as #3 on the far right. Same risk as tree line (small trees).

[polar]

about 11:30am...we left the peak at 10:20, but it's a slow ridge from Fletcher to Drift (an hour) and then another hour down a ridge from Drift Peak to Mayflower gulch. We saw the storm starting at about 10:15 perhaps 40 miles away. It moved fast.

Thanks for the info. I don't have anything to offer other than wild guesses, but here's some lightning safety guidelines from NOLS.
https://www.cmc.org/Portals/0/Governing ... elines.pdf

[ronbco]

https://www.climbing.com/skills/learn-t ... lightning/
I find this risk reduction diagram usefull. Especially the ravine listed as #3 on the far right. Same risk as tree line (small trees).

Wow! what an article! I learned a lot and the graphic really helped.
The main additions were: 1) I was indeed in considerable danger when the static was experienced, 2) crouch on my pack/jacket/pad, 3) ground current and side flash are far more likely that a strike, 4) the potential injury is a bigger concern than death, 5) rock shelters/crevices are not very safe