Contiguous US 14ers

14ers in California and Washington state or any other peak in the USA
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bj
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Re: Contiguous US 14ers

Post by bj » Sun Aug 16, 2020 11:05 am

"But who would claim now a days, they had done all California 14ers and only do 12?"

I was referring the list that Brian Kalet posted above and claimed was "current" I have heard people outside of California use that Number. And Starlight, Thunderbolt, and Polemonium are all technical. Some people what to avoid that..

"We would like to get back and do Liberty Cap though in the near future too"

Me to.
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Re: Contiguous US 14ers

Post by dhgold » Sun Aug 16, 2020 11:56 am

bj wrote:
Sun Aug 16, 2020 10:10 am
No Californian would consider the 14'ers complete if they had only done 12.
Disagree.

When I started doing the CA 14ers, in the 70s as a Los Angelino, there wasn't even a guidebook to them (although Roper's High Sierra guide provided beta on several) or a canonical list. Somehow I got it in my head that there were 13 of them, the 12 now considered ranked and Thunderbolt; I don't know why Thunderbolt made my list but Starlight and Polemonium didn't though it was likely because some published authority such as a magazine article decreed it so. I did all but Shasta by '87 but didn't get around to that until 2010.

I started the CO 14ers even earlier when the consensus 14er list included North Maroon and El Diente but not Ellingwood (though it was on the bubble so we did it just in case). At that time, Challenger had not yet been named (the eponymous space shuttle hadn't even been built) and was completely off the 14er climbers' radar. Nobody cared or thought about sub summits like N Massive or S Elbert though peaks that were along the line of march, such as Cameron and N Eolus were summitted in passing. In 1990 I finished the list I'd originally started with an ascent of Pikes.

For the next 20 years, I felt I'd done all the 14ers in the contiguous US except for Shasta. (I'd done Rainier in the 80s.) After I finally did Shasta, I started exploring listsofjohn and was surprised to find I had not in fact finished the current canonical list of Colorado ranked 14ers -- Challenger had apparently risen out of the North American Plate in the previous 20 years and I hadn't been to the top despite having been maddeningly close during an ascent of The Prow on Kit Carson. On a subsequent return trip to Colony Lakes basin, I made a point of ticking Challenger and felt I'd once again finished all the contiguous US 14ers.

However, more surfing on LOJ lead me to the discovery of Liberty Cap and my second un-finishing of the contiguous US 14ers.

At this point, as a semi-native Californian and a Colorado taxpayer for 30 plus years, I feel I have climbed all the "legit" 14ers in both states. I don't feel any need to do Starlight and Polemonium at least until when and if I get around to doing the many "worthier" CA 13ers that have my attention. Liberty Cap, though, with its nearly 500 feet of prominence does stick in my craw and I'd like to make time for it someday.

BTW, until I backlogged my 14ers ascents on listsofjohn in 2010, I'd never reported my ascents or list completions to any organization. For this reason, I'd never put much stock in tallies of 14er finishers.


20200816_113749[1].jpg
Old school list and list keeping. From Ormes Guide to the Colorado Mountains (6th Edition Revised)
20200816_113749[1].jpg (247.78 KiB) Viewed 666 times
Last edited by dhgold on Sun Aug 16, 2020 2:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Contiguous US 14ers

Post by CaptCO » Sun Aug 16, 2020 12:03 pm

Cool story DHGold, i’d like to get over to Cali for hiking one day, but that’s about all I want to visit for.

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Re: Contiguous US 14ers

Post by brichardsson » Sun Aug 16, 2020 12:51 pm

bj wrote:
Sun Aug 16, 2020 10:10 am

And yes Liberty Cap should be counted, as well the California 14'er list should have all 15. No Californian would consider the 14'ers complete if they had only done 12.
This is nonsense. There is a reason why certain peaks in CA are included on some lists (most specifically the Porcella/Burns list, which is the list most people use) but not others. Usually it is based on prominence. CA uses a 300 foot cutoff, but the P&B list includes peaks that are customarily done despite not meeting the prominence threshold (and in some cases have less prominence than other peaks that are excluded from the list). In other words, local custom overrides strict numerical criteria. Is is the same with Liberty Cap. There was long an exclusion for Liberty Cap (and other peaks in the PNW) based on them being a sub-500' prominence sub-peak of a volcanic summit. If you want, for you and your list, to include all points that are above the 14,000' threshold regardless of prominence, then you are of course free to do so. But to argue a point should or should not be done based on your specific thoughts, despite local custom, is kinda...self-centered is the term I'm looking for I guess.

/yes, i am working "all 15" in CA, per local custom
//yes, i am working "all 58" in CO, per local custom
///no, i will not go back to WA and do liberty cap, per local custom
////thankfully, you aren't the person to whom i have to answer when i (hopefully, eventually) say i've done all 74 14ers on the western us customary 14ers list.
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Re: Contiguous US 14ers

Post by brichardsson » Sun Aug 16, 2020 12:57 pm

dhgold wrote:
Sun Aug 16, 2020 11:56 am
Somehow I got it in my head that there were 13 of them, the 12 now considered ranked and Thunderbolt; I don't know why Thunderbolt made my list but Starlight and Polemonium didn't though it was likely because some published authority such as a magazine articlue decreed it so.
just for the lists purists, there are 11 ranked. muir is traditionally done, but it is not ranked.
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Re: Contiguous US 14ers

Post by asansone » Sun Aug 16, 2020 1:15 pm

Andrew and I always said, whatever the locals go by, is what you should too 😆
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Re: Contiguous US 14ers

Post by bdloftin77 » Sun Aug 16, 2020 2:20 pm

brichardsson wrote:
Sun Aug 16, 2020 12:57 pm
dhgold wrote:
Sun Aug 16, 2020 11:56 am
Somehow I got it in my head that there were 13 of them, the 12 now considered ranked and Thunderbolt; I don't know why Thunderbolt made my list but Starlight and Polemonium didn't though it was likely because some published authority such as a magazine articlue decreed it so.
just for the lists purists, there are 11 ranked. muir is traditionally done, but it is not ranked.
Muir is ranked - https://listsofjohn.com/peak/17717
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Re: Contiguous US 14ers

Post by jf32 » Sun Aug 16, 2020 2:44 pm

Here's my take as someone working on the US Contiguous 14ers.

Colorado has 53 ranked 14ers with 300 ft of prominence but the 'official' list these days is 58.

California has 12 ranked 14ers with 300 ft of prominence but the 'official' list is 15.

Washington has 2 ranked 14ers with 300 ft of prominence but the 'official' list is 1.

Summitpost has a page that has as the official list the 67 ranked 14ers with 300 ft of prominence. It applies a one size fits all metric to come up with a total that doesn't take into account the fact that there are different standards in the 3 locations and different climbing histories that set those standards. I totally understand the intent of the summitpost page but personally don't think it's the authority on US Contiguous 14ers.

My aim is to finish the 'official' list or 74 - and I am just one away.

Quick aside - Ngoodnight finished the 'official' list earlier this August.

Here's some reference on the history for why it's been the standard to exclude Liberty Cap:

http://www.rhinoclimbs.com/bulgers.html

From the above link - the early WA climbing community explicitly created a rule so as not to count Liberty Cap.

Big Boys Rules
Washington's 100 highest extends from 14410' Mt Rainier to 8320' Flora Mtn. Three major rules determine Top 100 eligibility:
Rule 1: An individual summit has to rise at least 400 feet above the surrounding terrain. The distinction looks right in the field and can be clearly determined from maps with 40, 80 and 100 foot contour intervals.
Rule 2: A peak with an official USGS-approved name will be considered for inclusion even if it fails the 400 foot rule.
Rule 3: An 800 foot rule applies to major volcanoes. This rule avoids counting Columbia Crest and Liberty Cap on Rainier as two separate mountains. Little Tahoma is the only volcanic sub-summit with Big Boy status.
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Re: Contiguous US 14ers

Post by CaptCO » Sun Aug 16, 2020 2:46 pm

Out of the 58 I had mixed feelings on Cameron, Challenger (just because KC is so dominant with better routes), N Eolus, Conundrum is debatable
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Re: Contiguous US 14ers

Post by mtnkub » Sun Aug 16, 2020 3:05 pm

CaptCO wrote:
Sun Aug 16, 2020 2:46 pm
Out of the 58 I had mixed feelings on Cameron, Challenger (just because KC is so dominant with better routes), N Eolus, Conundrum is debatable
Which also gets you to the exact list of 54 currently used by the CMC.
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Re: Contiguous US 14ers

Post by CaptCO » Sun Aug 16, 2020 3:10 pm

mtnkub wrote:
Sun Aug 16, 2020 3:05 pm
CaptCO wrote:
Sun Aug 16, 2020 2:46 pm
Out of the 58 I had mixed feelings on Cameron, Challenger (just because KC is so dominant with better routes), N Eolus, Conundrum is debatable
Which also gets you to the exact list of 54 currently used by the CMC.
That’s funny and I can see that.. I feel that the 58 gives you the “motivation” or “perseverance” to complete that full loop that otherwise, you probably wouldn’t of. Adds to a better 14er experience/adventure imo. Besides going back for challenger, I’d rather hike green mountain in boulder again

(Just a noob hiker with a little over 1yr of exp.)
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Re: Contiguous US 14ers

Post by greenonion » Sun Aug 16, 2020 3:31 pm

mtnkub wrote:
Sun Aug 16, 2020 3:05 pm
CaptCO wrote:
Sun Aug 16, 2020 2:46 pm
Out of the 58 I had mixed feelings on Cameron, Challenger (just because KC is so dominant with better routes), N Eolus, Conundrum is debatable
Which also gets you to the exact list of 54 currently used by the CMC.
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