What's the best type of training?

[pbakwin]

The best training is to do what you enjoy, so that you will do it consistently and, you know, enjoy doing it.

[Jorts]

[Bill G]

The best training is Little Chocolate Donuts.
https://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live ... nuts/n8655

[ekalina]

I recently revisited TFTNA and perused some of the resources on their website (https://www.uphillathlete.com/). I am committing to put the principles into practice this year and see how it goes. In the past, I've ran 3–5 miles about 3-4 times per week at 8:30 min/mile. This has always been near my anaerobic threshold, between HR zones 3 and 4. My pace and endurance have mostly plateaued over the years, and that is why I want to try this TFTNA experiment. I would like to be able to one day run a half marathon or a marathon at 8:30 min/mile pace, and I know I cannot maintain that pace for much more than 5 miles now, even in flat terrain.

Over the weekend, I performed a heart rate drift test using a chest-strap HR monitor and found that my aerobic threshold is at about 140 bpm. I have started running at or below that HR, and will continue doing it. To maintain that pace, I need to run very slowly on flat terrain, around 12 min/mile, which is an effort in itself. In theory, if I stick with this training, my pace at 140 bpm should slowly improve, and my aerobic threshold HR should slowly increase.

I am also doing some of the bodyweight-based strength exercises from the TFTNA book. Unsure how much impact they will have at this stage.

Anyway, we will see how it goes. I'll report back if anyone's interested.

[mtree]

Some folks insist. Why? Dunno.

[CaptainSuburbia]

The best training is racquetball. Might as well have fun.

[TomPierce]

I recently revisited TFTNA and perused some of the resources on their website (https://www.uphillathlete.com/). I am committing to put the principles into practice this year and see how it goes. In the past, I've ran 3–5 miles about 3-4 times per week at 8:30 min/mile. This has always been near my anaerobic threshold, between HR zones 3 and 4. My pace and endurance have mostly plateaued over the years, and that is why I want to try this TFTNA experiment. I would like to be able to one day run a half marathon or a marathon at 8:30 min/mile pace, and I know I cannot maintain that pace for much more than 5 miles now, even in flat terrain.

Over the weekend, I performed a heart rate drift test using a chest-strap HR monitor and found that my aerobic threshold is at about 140 bpm. I have started running at or below that HR, and will continue doing it. To maintain that pace, I need to run very slowly on flat terrain, around 12 min/mile, which is an effort in itself. In theory, if I stick with this training, my pace at 140 bpm should slowly improve, and my aerobic threshold HR should slowly increase.

I am also doing some of the bodyweight-based strength exercises from the TFTNA book. Unsure how much impact they will have at this stage.

Anyway, we will see how it goes. I'll report back if anyone's interested.

Ekalina: Sounds like a pretty thoughtful, objective approach. Good luck with your program!

-Tom

[timisimaginary]

I recently revisited TFTNA and perused some of the resources on their website (https://www.uphillathlete.com/). I am committing to put the principles into practice this year and see how it goes. In the past, I've ran 3–5 miles about 3-4 times per week at 8:30 min/mile. This has always been near my anaerobic threshold, between HR zones 3 and 4. My pace and endurance have mostly plateaued over the years, and that is why I want to try this TFTNA experiment. I would like to be able to one day run a half marathon or a marathon at 8:30 min/mile pace, and I know I cannot maintain that pace for much more than 5 miles now, even in flat terrain.

Over the weekend, I performed a heart rate drift test using a chest-strap HR monitor and found that my aerobic threshold is at about 140 bpm. I have started running at or below that HR, and will continue doing it. To maintain that pace, I need to run very slowly on flat terrain, around 12 min/mile, which is an effort in itself. In theory, if I stick with this training, my pace at 140 bpm should slowly improve, and my aerobic threshold HR should slowly increase.

I am also doing some of the bodyweight-based strength exercises from the TFTNA book. Unsure how much impact they will have at this stage.

Anyway, we will see how it goes. I'll report back if anyone's interested.

i tried this approach last year, and found it very frustrating and unfortunately not very effective for me. trying to keep my heart rate in Z1-Z2 turns running into a boring chore, and since i run almost exclusively on trails, almost impossible as well. no matter how flat or well-groomed a trail, it takes more effort than running roads or tracks. also, while aerobic base definitely matters in improving your running times, running efficiency is equally if not more important. improving efficiency will allow you to run faster with less effort. but the best way to teach your body to run fast, is by running fast. speedwork and drills are going to be an important part of that, and that means doing stuff like intervals of varying lengths at Z4-5, hill repeats, strides, etc.

i've decided this year to just ignore the HR on runs and focus on RPE instead, trying to keep the overall run in the easy zones but not worrying if my HR briefly jumps during a hill or tough section of trail, and then making sure i get at least 1-2 days a week of speedwork and tempo runs. as for base work, there are plenty of other ways to train your base besides running: stair climbing (a stepmill or incline treadmill is great for this), or cycling can be easier and more fun to do while maintaining an aerobic-level effort. when it comes to base training, the heart pumps the same way regardless of what your body is doing, so anything that gets you into the proper HR zone works as base training. i'd rather save my running for the harder (and more fun) training days.

[justiner]

That seems pretty reasonable, Tim - as Peter (and others) hinted, enjoyment is a big part of sticking to training,

The surprise from the athlete at just how low an effort one needs to do to keep at HR 1/2 is pretty usual. All the way back when Maffetone was training Mark Allen with one of the first "portable" HRM's and making that dude walk on his runs. I think Scott Johnston also talks about making his CX ski athletes take off their skis and walk as well, since their HR's were going up too high. Or when western coaches go to Kenya to observe their training programs and see the athletes mostly shuffle run at practices, maintaining like a 9:00 pace - those same athletes that can hold a ~5:00 pace for a whole marathon. The, "to go fast, one must go slow" is a very very hard idea to even believe - and again: why a book like TFTNA was written. It's an even harder concept for a climber who does these sorts of workouts,



to think that anything but explosive, max effort will do anything. You can get a little ways just running without worrying about HR's or whatever, but you'll hit a plateau. Is this plateau hitting relevant to 14er peak baggers. Yah, probably not. Unless you're training to PR the Pikes Peak Marathon or something? Going for Andrew's record? No one is going to run 30 mpw at Zone 1/2 for 6 months for the explicit reason to crush Beirdstadt and a handful of other 14ers in the summer. Y'all got lives. But if you wanted to, well: what's a coach for except keep you accountable towards your goals and make you do things you'd rather not, as it's WAY funner to do the other thing?

[ekalina]

Good feedback, Tim. I can't deny that running in Z2 is not as exciting as my usual approach. However, the slower pace does acquire a sort of zen-like quality to it for me after the first 20 min or so. Like you suggested, if I actually want to run/jog in Z2, it has to be on flat terrain. I do plan to incorporate some trail "runs" since that increases the level of excitement, but I'll need to hike the uphills. I'm not too worried about having to walk; as you said, as long as my HR is in Z1-Z2, there should still be an aerobic benefit.

I do not expect that this type of base work will make me fast, but I am hopeful that over time (probably measured in the span of months rather than days/weeks), it will increase my endurance. For speed, I agree that a measured amount of Z4 would be needed, on top of the aerobic base. But I need to build that base first.

[Dave B]

I did a 12 week TFTUA training block for a trail half marathon last summer. End result: I hated it and saw very little improvement in aerobic pace (about 20 sec/mile at AeT), I was slow AF when I started and slow AF minus 20 seconds when it ended. More importantly, training become another boring chore I had to do, never fun, never interesting, always constrained and measured. I'll not do it again.

Variety is important. Yes, TFTUA includes higher intensity later on, but the base period is f*cking boring. Maybe I'll revisit if I have a more appropriate multi-day goal where a huge aerobic base is more important. Until then, I'm gonna go have fun running as fast as I feel like, cycling, and even doing a good bit of HIIT - it makes me good in the feels.

[Jorts]

With regards to running, I'm not Joe Gray or the DeMoor brothers, but I have a lot of experience and I'm reasonably fast.

Andrew Skurka's summary of Roche's approach for going far, fast works - I've been following an analog of it for years. It's particularly relevant to running and fast hiking where you have to account for impact forces and fatigue:
https://andrewskurka.com/complete-train ... g-summary/

And studies have been done comparing various training approaches. This study was one of my favorites because it directly compares long slow distance, threshold training, HIIT, and polarization. Spoiler, polarization works best for dramatic improvements in measurable variables related to being faster. And too much HIIT is awful for you.
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10 ... 00033/full

Fact of the matter is, as has been driven into the ground ad nauseam, most people are not well trained trying to get faster. Most are undertrained. If you're undertrained, just be consistent and move more.

But if you're one of those people who is well trained trying to get faster, check out the resources I cited above.