What's the best type of training?

[DArcyS]

I race bikes, so I've read up on some of this stuff as well. (I'm just a so-so racer, e.g., placing 15 out of 25 for age 50+ with a time of 2hr 46 min for the Mt. Evans Hill Climb in 2019, which is to say, nothing special.) One of the more enlightening websites is lactate.com. If you get through that site, you'll understand why HIIT slows you down. Or I can tell you now - HIIT trains the anaerobic system/muscles, and these muscles produce lactate at any level of exercise, so if you overdevelop this system, the use of these muscles at even low intensities will still produce lactate and have you reaching your lactate threshold sooner. (see https://www.lactate.com/lactate_threshold_04.html)

Take home message for hiking or other endurance pursuits where you aren't racing against a clock or other people -- don't do short intervals (as Jorts suggests as well). If I were interested in just becoming a better hiker, I don't think I'd ever do an interval of less than 5 minutes. (Just out of curiosity, what does TFTUA or TFTNA say about the length of intervals?) But this assumes you want to hike faster or be in better shape. Plenty of good hikers don't do intervals because hiking is just walking, and who needs intervals for that? In the end, to each their own.

Because I race (or at least try to without getting my butt kicked too badly), I had this uneasy feeling as to my training HR -- too easy or too hard? -- so I decided to have a lactate threshold test. And the $175 was worth it, as this allowed me to narrow down my training zones with a fair amount of certainty. In particular, I could pinpoint where lactate first begins to increase from the base of 1 mmol/L.

So, everybody is advocating "slow, lots of slow." But what does slow really mean? Below is a chart given in a presentation by Dr. Stephen Seiler who was one of the pioneers in studying polarized training . As you might guess, the green is slow. But do you see how that green extend to 2.4 mmol/L? (In another talk, I heard him knock that down to 2 mmol/L). Once you start going above 1 mmol/L, you aren't going that slow. It's only slow relative to how fast one could go. (FYI, once you go beyond roughly 2mmol/L, you've exceeded your aerobic threshold.)

Another thing that's emphasized is that training is done to induce a physical adaptation to the physical stress placed upon the body. Now, if the best athletes have the highest lactate thresholds -- i.e., the body becomes efficient at removing it -- what is the best "slow" training to induce a physical adaptation to lactate? The slow-slow training where no extra lactate is produced, or the fast-slow training where the body needs to "adapt" for a slight increase in the lactate? Just a thought...

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[Dave B]

I don't necessarily fully grasp what is meant by "cellular level". But, that being said, what sple (slow pace, low effort) buys you is a few thing. 1) the ability to train day in and day out. The approach must be taken with caution and built slowly, as suggested by House-Johnston/Maffetone/Olbrecht. Typically, many training programs suggest (especially early on) to skip every other day. I think with a zonal approach, moderation and sple, that can be achieved every day and the benefits are better.

By cellular level, I mean mostly an increase in mitochondrial density. FWIW, I'm not arguing against the importance of long-slow, I personally feel the biggest gains from long slow days in the mountains. I just, again personally, don't want to go out and run long and slow.

3) fueling needs during "long days." when I am a top my game, I can go 18+ hours without eating and not bonking. I had a partner who couldn't give up the heavy lifting and he ate like a horse every 45 mins.

regarding "speed play" or incorporating some "faster runs" into one's training program. Jan Olbrecht (who's training strategies have been incorporated by USA swimming and our dominance in the world stage) said he has noticed no detrimental effects with a single weekly training event at a faster pace. That is caveated with a decent aerobic base and appropriate warm up and cool down to gobble up the lactate. I incorporated it for a few months and found no change. Olbrecht uses very frequent lactate testing and has strict periodization programs (usually 4-6 weeks) which he'll then adjust the next period based on lactate testing and the prior program.

I have yet to see anything go against Twight's TINSTAAFL piece. I could be convinced with true science, but it just doesn't seem intuitive to me. I have yet to fully grasp the "Boring" aspect either. I move over the trail faster than "hiking". So if slow jogging is boring, what is hiking? Also, I watched the HIIT masters (aka cross fitters) on TV for about 2 mins once. I couldn't grasp how flipping a tire over repeatedly or jumping on the same box was more exciting than jogging on a trail, but different strokes for different folks I guess.

I still stand by my original statement in this thread. The BEST thing someone can do for their hiking is lots of sple jogging. It doesn't make other methods "bad", just not as good.

Yeah, I should clarify. I think the TFTUA approach definitely has it's advantages. You're more likely to become fat adapted on a steady diet of low and slow, and when it comes down to the volume of work you can handle with TFTUA's approach will far eclipse what you can handle in terms of higher intensity. Obviously that leads to increased movement efficiency and ability to sustain easy efforts for long periods of time. I am definitely not arguing against that. My problem is how little flexibility is offered in their approach, no cycling, no moderate intensity, no higher intensity, no fun. That doesn't motivate *me* to put my shoes on and get out the door anymore.

Even if the mind was willing, I simply don't have the time in my week to do the volume of training that's required to make progress with TFTUA. I get maybe 7-8 hours tops, 4-5 of which is a longer morning (easy Z1-2) on the weekend. The remaining 2-3 hours during the week, I want to fill with "training" that accomplishes as much as possible in as short a time as possible. I don't do crossfit, but I like to go out for a 45 minute run three times a week with more than half of that at tempo pace or faster. I supplement that with some mild strength and mobility and kettlebell circuits and it keeps me ready and feeling good for my weekend days or my physically taxing field work days.

I do think Twight's TINSTAAFL piece has a lot of truth to it, for a specific niche of athlete (competitive and/or with large volumes of time available). For normal people, whom probably make up 90% of the customer base for TFTUA, you can short cut some of the slow-low a bit by adding in a bit more intensity. Studies show similar levels of mitochondrial synthesis with high intensity and low and slow. The adaptations won't be the same and the metabolic pathways develop differently, but it works for me and compliments the limited excitement and time I have for training these days.

Most importantly, YMMV. Like Tim said above, everyone needs to find what works for them. TFTUA seems to work for a lot of people, for me it makes training a job, and I already have a job. I want training and being in the mountains to be an escape, not a task. In fact, I've noticed I've been enjoying training 10x more for the past two months since I stopped wearing a HR monitor or a watch for my runs/hikes/skis, I just get out and go by feel. So, my hybrid approach is what works for me.

[justiner]

Most importantly, YMMV. Like Tim said above, everyone needs to find what works for them. TFTUA seems to work for a lot of people, for me it makes training a job, and I already have a job. I want training and being in the mountains to be an escape, not a task. In fact, I've noticed I've been enjoying training 10x more for the past two months since I stopped wearing a HR monitor or a watch for my runs/hikes/skis, I just get out and go by feel. So, my hybrid approach is what works for me.

I think that's a really great takeaway. The more lofty the goal, the more you may benefit from structure in a training plan. If you don't have that goal, it is going to be self flagellation just to do it because a book says to do it. But if it's a BIG goal - of any sort, expect some pretty boring/tedious parts.

[Dave B]

I think that's a really great takeaway. The more lofty the goal, the more you may benefit from structure in a training plan. If you don't have that goal, it is going to be self flagellation just to do it because a book says to do it. But if it's a BIG goal - of any sort, expect some pretty boring/tedious parts.

Fo shizzle - I think that's where TFTUA get's just a little too much credit when it comes to training for 14ering. Just get out hiking more, maybe run some and lift some weights. No need to make it too serious or complicated.

[DArcyS]

I’m honestly embarrassed at my “training” ethic. I think if you live in CO and work less than 50 hours a week there’s plentiful time to maintain what you’ve built. Maybe it gets harder when you’re not 20 something? I’m all ears, I eat terrible food and drink too much!

If you're in your 20s, you don't need to train to climb 14ers unless you're really out of shape for a young person. I know people who are in the 60s and 70s who climb peaks, so that kind of says something about how hard it really is to climb a high Colorado peak. Now, if you want to run up a 14er or climb all the 14ers in 20 days, that's different.

So, enjoy your 20s while you can!

[Conor]

I’m honestly embarrassed at my “training” ethic. I think if you live in CO and work less than 50 hours a week there’s plentiful time to maintain what you’ve built. Maybe it gets harder when you’re not 20 something? I’m all ears, I eat terrible food and drink too much!

If you're in your 20s, you don't need to train to climb 14ers unless you're really out of shape for a young person. I know people who are in the 60s and 70s who climb peaks, so that kind of says something about how hard it really is to climb a high Colorado peak. Now, if you want to run up a 14er or climb all the 14ers in 20 days, that's different.

So, enjoy your 20s while you can!

Also, there are those of us that can't take off all weekend every weekend because of family responsibilities. my annual peak list will always pale in comparison to others, but I'm happy with it, if not a little guilty feeling, as it is time I'm not spending with my family. They're getting out more with me, so that is good...but, turns out my wife doesn't care if I wake up early and run for an hour or 2 before everyone wakes up.

[FireOnTheMountain]

Woah, so many words here. Answer was given within the first 1.5 pages of the thread.

Just like to point out I chimed in cause I wanted to figure out wtf TFTNA meant or was and discovered this nugget:

You won't need TFTNA for 14ers anyways. No peak requires you to be able to climb 5.12 and run a 9:30/mile @ 14,000. I would put the tome of the book in my pack for some weighted carries though. Works great for that.

[jaymz]

Woah, so many words here. Answer was given within the first 1.5 pages of the thread.

Just like to point out I chimed in cause I wanted to figure out wtf TFTNA meant or was and discovered this nugget:

You won't need TFTNA for 14ers anyways. No peak requires you to be able to climb 5.12 and run a 9:30/mile @ 14,000. I would put the tome of the book in my pack for some weighted carries though. Works great for that.

I have actually done exactly this. Sucker is heavy.

[justiner]

Me too - for real

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[Hiking_TheRockies]

I could use some help with training... I work really hard to be in shape in summer, and I usually do cross county in fall, but this year cross country got cancelled at my school (due to COVID) and I haven't really had any serious exercise for about 4 months. I also go to a rock climbing gym relatively often, but that too has been closed for COVID reasons. Every day I basically just come home, do homework, and then eat oreos and play video games. I'm hoping to be able to do some hikes later in January-February because the snowfall has been minimal this year, but what should I do until then?

[timisimaginary]

I think that's a really great takeaway. The more lofty the goal, the more you may benefit from structure in a training plan. If you don't have that goal, it is going to be self flagellation just to do it because a book says to do it. But if it's a BIG goal - of any sort, expect some pretty boring/tedious parts.

Fo shizzle - I think that's where TFTUA get's just a little too much credit when it comes to training for 14ering. Just get out hiking more, maybe run some and lift some weights. No need to make it too serious or complicated.

definitely, i think it's already been pointed out that TFTNA is designed for mountaineering, but even TFTUA is targeted at skimo and skyrunning. it's a little closer to 14ering, but unless you're doing the Pikes Peak Marathon or Nolan's or something like that, it's really not applicable to 99.9% of 14er hiking. that doesn't mean the basic principles can't be useful for less intense activities like 14er hiking, but it's still overkill (just slightly less overkill than TFTNA).

bookwise, there's a book called The Outdoor Athlete that i think is more useful for the average person. it has chapters devoted to training for hiking, backpacking, trail running, mountain biking, etc. i can't speak to the chapters on mountain biking, skiing, rock climbing etc since i don't do those (i suspect people serious about those sports could do better with something more specifically focused on just that sport), but the chapters on hiking, backpacking and "mountaineering" are probably as good as anything you'll find in book form for 14er training (the "mountaineering" section culminates in a training plan for Rainier, so it's certainly not the same level of mountaineering that TFTNA is geared towards). i followed one of their plans before coming to CO for my first 14er hikes, and felt plenty prepared based on that training regimen.

[timisimaginary]

3) fueling needs during "long days." when I am a top my game, I can go 18+ hours without eating and not bonking. I had a partner who couldn't give up the heavy lifting and he ate like a horse every 45 mins.

regarding "speed play" or incorporating some "faster runs" into one's training program. Jan Olbrecht (who's training strategies have been incorporated by USA swimming and our dominance in the world stage) said he has noticed no detrimental effects with a single weekly training event at a faster pace. That is caveated with a decent aerobic base and appropriate warm up and cool down to gobble up the lactate. I incorporated it for a few months and found no change. Olbrecht uses very frequent lactate testing and has strict periodization programs (usually 4-6 weeks) which he'll then adjust the next period based on lactate testing and the prior program.

I have yet to see anything go against Twight's TINSTAAFL piece. I could be convinced with true science, but it just doesn't seem intuitive to me. I have yet to fully grasp the "Boring" aspect either. I move over the trail faster than "hiking". So if slow jogging is boring, what is hiking? Also, I watched the HIIT masters (aka cross fitters) on TV for about 2 mins once. I couldn't grasp how flipping a tire over repeatedly or jumping on the same box was more exciting than jogging on a trail, but different strokes for different folks I guess.

I still stand by my original statement in this thread. The BEST thing someone can do for their hiking is lots of sple jogging. It doesn't make other methods "bad", just not as good.

yeah, there are very few activities that require 18+ hours of activity without refueling. even ultrarunning, you have aid stations and plenty of chances to refuel. i think a big part of why TFTNA was created in the first place was the unique nature of mountaineering where long periods of activity on low or no fuel can occur, and much of the book is training the body to operate efficiently by using stored fat as fuel for longer pursuits where fueling may be difficult or impossible... which is also why it's not necessarily the best approach for other sports. elite marathoners are only running for a little over 2 hours, with copious opportunities to refuel, so they don't need to develop a metabolism that can forgo fuel for double-digit hours worth of activity.

anyways, when i talk about slow running being boring, for me specifically i'm talking about running on the track or road or treadmill. trail running is different. i can run or jog or hike on trails and not be bored, just because i'm out in nature, which is inherently non-boring. my trail runs are really mostly a mix of slow jogging and hiking anyway. i'm always slower on the trails than the road, but i don't mind that. i actually started trail running because some of my longer hikes were starting to get a bit boring, and i thought it would be more fun if i could cover that ground more quickly (although still pretty slowly by objective measures). if i'm training for a race, though, i have to do more non-trail running for training, and that's where the boredom factor can creep in. those are the times i'd prefer hiking or easy trail-running, or even cycling, for base training, rather than forcing myself to slog through an hour of shuffling around a track or down a bike path to keep my HR artificially low.