Permits Required for Maroon-Snowmass Camping in 2023

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dwoodward13
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Re: Permits Required for Maroon-Snowmass Camping in 2023

Post by dwoodward13 »

justiner wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 1:48 pm The looking to buy/looking to sell of these permits is getting tiring. There needs to be some place to put these sorts of requests to help with the signal/noise.

I don't fault either side that this situation exists, except the parties that are buying permits en-mass to lock onto one day, then trying to sell all other days else en-mass last minute. That to me is an abuse of the permitting system.
It will be interesting to see how it works out, but I'm not sure the camping permits will have the buy/sell issue, or as least as big of a mess as the parking permits. At least for other places (RMNP specifically) you can't just give your permit to someone else. You have your name on the permit and have to go pick it up in person, and they have checked my ID in the past. I don't recall many people trying to sell RMNP permits, although maybe I'm not in the correct Buy/Sell group. Although the "pick up in person" is annoying, it does give the rangers an opportunity to provide some education on LNT/bears/conditions or the like. I don't think that's a bad thing, and actually hope they set it up this way, especially with the lesser experienced crowd the 4PL tends to draw. Conundrum currently does limit to the amount of permits you can get per year. I guess we will find out in the coming months.
Last edited by dwoodward13 on Tue Oct 04, 2022 10:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
peter303
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Re: Permits Required for Maroon-Snowmass Camping in 2023

Post by peter303 »

A number of reservation sites split permits into two batch (1) months in advance for people making expensive trip arrangements and (2) 48 hours in advance for last minute visitors. I couldn't figure out if Maroon Bells does this. RMNP does this.
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dwoodward13
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Re: Permits Required for Maroon-Snowmass Camping in 2023

Post by dwoodward13 »

peter303 wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 10:28 am A number of reservation sites split permits into two batch (1) months in advance for people making expensive trip arrangements and (2) 48 hours in advance for last minute visitors. I couldn't figure out if Maroon Bells does this. RMNP does this.
The literature out so far does not indicate they will hold some number of camping permits for close-in reservations. Both Conundrum camping permits, and Maroon Lake parking permits do not currently do this for maybe a bit more indication of where its going.
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RestlessLegSyndrome
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Re: Permits Required for Maroon-Snowmass Camping in 2023

Post by RestlessLegSyndrome »

Though I am undecided on how I feel about a reservation system in general, I am disappointed that many of the profits of the system are going to go to a private corporation (recreation.gov). Rec.gov unfortunately is not a government run website.
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SkaredShtles
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Re: Permits Required for Maroon-Snowmass Camping in 2023

Post by SkaredShtles »

RestlessLegSyndrome wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 10:57 am Though I am undecided on how I feel about a reservation system in general, I am disappointed that many of the profits of the system are going to go to a private corporation (recreation.gov). Rec.gov unfortunately is not a government run website.
Just curious - but what is your evidence to support this assertion?
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Re: Permits Required for Maroon-Snowmass Camping in 2023

Post by Bill G »

"Just curious - but what is your evidence to support this assertion?"

Amazing what you can look up.

"Where does the money from Recreation.gov go?
None of these fees end up with the Forest Service, the National Park Service, the BLM, or any other federal land agency. You are, instead, paying directly into the pocket of a corporation that designed a digitally attractive assistant to provide you with that highly valued, intuitive booking experience."

Current operator is Booz Allen Hamilton.
https://www.boozallen.com/s/insight/tho ... ience.html
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LURE
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Re: Permits Required for Maroon-Snowmass Camping in 2023

Post by LURE »

Peak200 wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 5:33 pm Everyone makes a big fuss over 10 dollars
Ridiculous who cares about 10 dollars
People spend hundreds to get to the trailhead
And they won't spend 10 dollars to help keep
The whole reason they are going better
nobody is complaining about the 10 dollars.

it's the concern and worry about how often you'll even get the opportunity to spend those 10 dollars.
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dwoodward13
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Re: Permits Required for Maroon-Snowmass Camping in 2023

Post by dwoodward13 »

Bill G wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 12:07 pm "Just curious - but what is your evidence to support this assertion?"

Amazing what you can look up.

"Where does the money from Recreation.gov go?
None of these fees end up with the Forest Service, the National Park Service, the BLM, or any other federal land agency. You are, instead, paying directly into the pocket of a corporation that designed a digitally attractive assistant to provide you with that highly valued, intuitive booking experience."

Current operator is Booz Allen Hamilton.
https://www.boozallen.com/s/insight/tho ... ience.html
Yep this is correct. Any of the "reservation fees" for any of the recreation.gov reservations goes to Booz (the private contractor running recreation.gov on behalf of the government), not any land manager. If there is an additional cost on top of the "reservation fee", then that would go to the land manager. For example, Brainard Lake has a $14 vechile permit, and a $2 dollar reservation fee. Booz would get the 2 bucks and the USFS gets the 14.

It gets sillier for places like Conundurm, where there is a $6 dollar reservation fee and that's it. Booz gets it all. Even spells it out on the website:
The reservation fee is $6 per permit. This fee is non-refundable. This fee is retained by Recreation.gov to complete the transaction. No part of the fee goes to the White River National Forest
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Been_Jammin
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Re: Permits Required for Maroon-Snowmass Camping in 2023

Post by Been_Jammin »

Private companies profiting off reservations for public land use is news to me. Very interesting. Booze Allen Hamilton is making bank! I love capitalism.
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Conor
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Re: Permits Required for Maroon-Snowmass Camping in 2023

Post by Conor »

I always assumed it was some senator brother in law deal opposed to a large corporation running recreation.gov. Perhaps, someone's brother in law got a large promotion at the large corporation.
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hellmanm
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Re: Permits Required for Maroon-Snowmass Camping in 2023

Post by hellmanm »

TBH I've always seen a minor safety issue with reservation systems like this. I think that, given the limited reservations, that many climbers will be more inclined to chase small weather windows on dangerous elk peaks next summer. What once was a wise turnaround on the bells turns into a "well s**t, we can't try again until next year... might as well give it a shot"- type of vibe in which the party ends up running down N Maroon's second gully in a thunderstorm with rockfall cascading over/around them. I know that we need to curtail use, and I don't have a huge objection to BAH making $ off of this (though I'd really prefer a more local alternative), but the safety associated with this new system should be a concern.
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Re: Permits Required for Maroon-Snowmass Camping in 2023

Post by jrs1965 »

Been_Jammin wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 1:48 pm Private companies profiting off reservations for public land use is news to me. Very interesting. Booze Allen Hamilton is making bank! I love capitalism.
Weird, BAH is a very high end DoD/government contractor. Typically, all senior level positions working TS/SCI type stuff. Now, they're essentially forest rangers?
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