Permits Required for Maroon-Snowmass Camping in 2023

[ltlFish99]

This is simply a curiosity question.
i am completely ignorant when it comes to certain things.
Therefore, i reach out eith such questions.
How does all of this work for the guide services.
Seems it would be Very difficult to book guide trips with the uncertainty of securing the permits etc.?

[JROSKA]

This is simply a curiosity question.
i am completely ignorant when it comes to certain things.
Therefore, i reach out eith such questions.
How does all of this work for the guide services.
Seems it would be Very difficult to book guide trips with the uncertainty of securing the permits etc.?

They have their own parking pass. For both themselves and the client. So that is one way around the parking pass issue!

[Wentzl]

Private companies profiting off reservations for public land use is news to me. Very interesting. Booze Allen Hamilton is making bank! I love capitalism.

For anyone not sure about Booze Allen Hamilton, this is an interesting bit:

https://www.outdoorproject.com/articles ... blic-lands

[Flips]

TBH I've always seen a minor safety issue with reservation systems like this. I think that, given the limited reservations, that many climbers will be more inclined to chase small weather windows on dangerous elk peaks next summer. What once was a wise turnaround on the bells turns into a "well s**t, we can't try again until next year... might as well give it a shot"- type of vibe in which the party ends up running down N Maroon's second gully in a thunderstorm with rockfall cascading over/around them. I know that we need to curtail use, and I don't have a huge objection to BAH making $ off of this (though I'd really prefer a more local alternative), but the safety associated with this new system should be a concern.

Exactly.

[JROSKA]

TBH I've always seen a minor safety issue with reservation systems like this. I think that, given the limited reservations, that many climbers will be more inclined to chase small weather windows on dangerous elk peaks next summer. What once was a wise turnaround on the bells turns into a "well s**t, we can't try again until next year... might as well give it a shot"- type of vibe in which the party ends up running down N Maroon's second gully in a thunderstorm with rockfall cascading over/around them.

I agree with this, I can see the reasoning but only to a point. Because any hike or climb (not just those with a parking / camping reservation) involves some level of, it took a lot of commitment to get out here, let’s not fall short because we may not get back here for awhile. Whether it’s someone from Denver driving 300+ miles to the San Juan’s or someone from out of state hoping to get a bunch of 14ers on a short vacation here. This past year after getting the Eolus group I bailed on Sunlight - Windom on Day 2 because I wasn’t feeling well. I knew very well how difficult (and expensive) it will be to get back out there but once on the mountain, those types of difficult safety decisions need to be made in an emotionless fashion, without regard to how difficult it will be to get back & climb the peak.

I’d even go a little further. Anyone who allows the time or cost commitment of travel or difficulty of obtaining reservations get in the way of safety decisions on the more difficult 14ers, probably needs more experience and seasoning on simpler peaks & shouldn’t be climbing the more difficult ones to begin with.

[JROSKA]

many climbers will be more inclined to chase small weather windows on dangerous elk peaks next summer. What once was a wise turnaround on the bells turns into a "well s**t, we can't try again until next year...

On another note why are so many 14er climbers on a strict time clock these days? If a scheduled time doesn’t work out (for weather, or whatever), what in the world is so wrong with just coming back again in a year? Or even more than a year. “I paid for this reservation, damn it, and I have no idea when I’ll be able to get out here again, I’m getting this peak, I don’t care if safety is compromised”. I guess I just don’t get that mentality. Never will.

[climbingcue]

many climbers will be more inclined to chase small weather windows on dangerous elk peaks next summer. What once was a wise turnaround on the bells turns into a "well s**t, we can't try again until next year...

On another note why are so many 14er climbers on a strict time clock these days? If a scheduled time doesn’t work out (for weather, or whatever), what in the world is so wrong with just coming back again in a year? Or even more than a year. “I paid for this reservation, damn it, and I have no idea when I’ll be able to get out here again, I’m getting this peak, I don’t care if safety is compromised”. I guess I just don’t get that mentality. Never will.

This is one of the reasons there are so many dead people on Everest.

[thebeave7]

I paid $100k to climb Culebra so I wasn't going to let the thunderstorm stop me....
Oh wait, nevermind.

Everyone complaining about the permits and all the people who come to Colorado to hike the Four Pass loop or climb the Bells should just look in the mirror. Everyone comes for similar reasons, they are beautiful places, with amazing mountains that we all want to visit. We can't all have everything just the way we want it and keep everyone else out, so unfortunately we get permitting and restrictions to mitigate the fact that we're slowly loving many of our open spaces to death (could the systems be improved, sure). If you don't like that, then don't try to go to one of the most popular destinations in the Rocky Mountains. Lots of other quiet trails and wilderness without restrictions and crowds.

Eric

[cougar]

many climbers will be more inclined to chase small weather windows on dangerous elk peaks next summer. What once was a wise turnaround on the bells turns into a "well s**t, we can't try again until next year...

On another note why are so many 14er climbers on a strict time clock these days? If a scheduled time doesn’t work out (for weather, or whatever), what in the world is so wrong with just coming back again in a year? Or even more than a year. “I paid for this reservation, damn it, and I have no idea when I’ll be able to get out here again, I’m getting this peak, I don’t care if safety is compromised”. I guess I just don’t get that mentality. Never will.

This is one of the reasons there are so many dead people on Everest.

To get things done before there's even more red tape and higher fees. Cost of everything is going up. Culebra used to be $25, then $100, now $150 and $100k per post here. Quandary parking at $50 or shuttle. Hanging Lake. At some point soon we'll see lottery permits like Whitney on popular peaks. I think the safety concerns mentioned is the only reason it hasn't been done on Longs. Quandary is now a cash cow for Breck so don't think we'll see lotteries there.
If the fee dollars went to trail maintenance instead of a private company it would be great. The crater lake and other popular trails are worn down badly with all the traffic.

Also a lot of people finish in the Elks so why wait another year when so close?

There's also been the closures of Lindsey and Decalibron to navigate, a growing issue.

[disentangled]

"Free Same Day Delivery on All Your Favorite Peaks". It's seeped into people's mentality and they want the same "experience" adventuring that they have come to expect from shopping.

[dwoodward13]

Quandary is now a cash cow for Breck so don't think we'll see lotteries there.
If the fee dollars went to trail maintenance instead of a private company it would be great.

In 2021, Summit County lost nearly 225k running the system, and the private contractor running the parking operation lost about 50k. The shuttle bus was priced using the 2021 numbers so that in 2022 it would break even. It will be interesting to see the full 2022 report, but for what we do have, it was very much not a cash cow.

https://summitcounty.civilspace.io/rail ... Report.pdf

[SkaredShtles]

Photo from a pass near the 4-Pass loop... we saw *one* person on our return to our truck at Schofield...

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