Trail descent training?

[mikefromcraig]

I'm sure that guy and his wife have far better credentials than I do but I just can't wrap my head around why one would need to do resistance training for ultrarunning. If you are just jogging along at 6 mph why would you need to build muscle? Doesn't jogging target the muscles involved in jogging better than the exercises he demonstrated? I understand doing things like using the elliptical to supplement long runs to reduce the impact and still improve your cardio is effective but just not resistance training.

Running, and most other cardio, is catabolic, meaning it breaks down muscle. Resistance training is how you build muscle.

If running built muscle, ultrarunners would be jacked not scrawny.

I'm pretty sure this is incorrect. Weightlifting breaks down the muscle. That's how you get stronger; you break down the muscle and then it builds back stronger. And running does build muscle. Of course not nearly as much as strength training but it does build muscle. If you take two identical people with identical lifestyles and have one of them run 5 miles every other day and the other does not, that person will have more muscle mass.

[Dave B]

In trained versus untrained, yes a runner will have more muscle mass. There is some anabolic response after running and you do get some muscle adaptations, but overall running and other forms of cardio are catabolic. Resistance training is more effective at building strength through anabolism and, I don't know about you, but I've never heard anyone say they wish they were less strong.

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/do ... ild-muscle

https://www.verywellhealth.com/cataboli ... sm-7106982

[mikefromcraig]

David Roche is a runner and coach. He came in 5th at the recent Canyons 100k. In the video, there are some good alternates to squats, etc.

Ultra Legs, A Strength Routine For Ultrarunners
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LV905EEKAM

I'm sure that guy and his wife have far better credentials than I do but I just can't wrap my head around why one would need to do resistance training for ultrarunning. If you are just jogging along at 6 mph why would you need to build muscle? Doesn't jogging target the muscles involved in jogging better than the exercises he demonstrated? I understand doing things like using the elliptical to supplement long runs to reduce the impact and still improve your cardio is effective but just not resistance training.

I suppose I could understand if you were stuck inside due to a snowstorm and didn't have a treadmill, doing these exercises would be better than nothing. I just don't see how sacrificing running for resistance training would help with an ultramarathon. I'm not even trying to convince anyone I'm right. If anything, they are the experts and not me. I'm just saying I don't understand. If you run the 800 or are an elite 5,000 meter runner where they have to have a powerful kick at the end, absolutely they should be incorporating resistance training. I just don't get it for ultramarathons.

I think your questions are valid and I'm not sure I'm qualified to answer, but I'll give it a shot. First of all, any strength training is totally in addition to your running. So it is supplemental and not taking away from the running. It is an additional stressor to the body which will make you more durable and less injury prone. Some folks may not need to do this (young/superfit) and some will not want to add this for whatever reason. It's totally an individual decision.

So the question back to you is.....you are going to attempt something quite difficult (R2R). Why would you not want to be in the best shape to endure such an effort? And if that includes some additional workouts beyond just running, I would think that would just be part of the journey to get you to the R2R starting line. Having that additional strength will give you confidence and provide reserves when you'll need it on that climb up from the river.

There may be other factors at play too. You may simply be young and fit and very capable of doing whatever you please. That's not true for many of us and especially when you get to be of a certain age. The only thing I can tell you is that, as someone who has had the pleasure of playing many different sports over many decades, strength training has always played a beneficial role in whatever activity I've done.

But strength training DOES take away from running training. Your body is only capable of handling so much (especially bodies that have been around for over 40 years!). Think of it this way, imagine someone was promoting the idea of doing a vigorous strength training routine an hour before an ultramarathon. They attempt to justify this patently horrible idea by explaining, "This strength training is totally in addition to my running. So it is supplemental and not taking away from the running." They are wrong.

There is absolutely a tradeoff between strength training and running. There's even a tradeoff between upper body strength training and running. Now, if the gains from increased strength outweigh the losses from diminished running workouts, then it's an advantageous tradeoff, but there's still a tradeoff involved.

I will concede that with the R2R training it might be easier to justify some strength training as I will have to carry maybe 10lb or so of water, clothes, and food and I'm already pretty light.

[justiner]

But strength training DOES take away from running training. Your body is only capable of handling so much (especially bodies that have been around for over 40 years!). Think of it this way, imagine someone was promoting the idea of doing a vigorous strength training routine an hour before an ultramarathon. They attempt to justify this patently horrible idea by explaining, "This strength training is totally in addition to my running. So it is supplemental and not taking away from the running." They are wrong.

So, two things. First, you're describing the Interference Effect, which has been properly debunked but has been stuck in the collective zeitgeist as has so much bro science. Only in extremes: say you're a very enthusiastic body builder or distance runner and you want to peak, should you ever be worried about this. If the interference effect were real, I would not be as massive as I am. The reason why many distance runners look like distance runners is that they do not lift heavy weights - distance running takes enough time in of itself and I guess these people have lives. You will reach a limit of time in your day before you hit an interference effect limitation, unless your life revolves around training, at which point you're either independently wealthy, in the Olympics already, or both.

If you do do some sort of strength exercise, you will gain strength no matter if you're a endurance junky. Take it from me,





I don't quite understand the idea of doing a strength workout right before you're trying to peak at your performance in an ultramarathon - that is a dumb idea to do. But it's not idea that no one does. Consider this gentleman that did a half marathin, after doing one of the hardest one-day road races on the UCI calendar.

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/camero ... s-roubaix/

He can do it, as he's slowly worked up to have that sort of capacity for the load. And so could you (comparatively). What your body is capable is trainable until a limit you probably haven't reached yet (and no doubt the higher your make that work load capacity, the harder it is to achieve).

Secondly, you're conflating the idea that strength training only effects the body by building muscle, which is wrong. There are many adaptations that happen within the body , which could include new muscle growth, but also neural-muscular connections, connective tissue changes, etc. You can strength train, get stronger, and build little to no muscle mass! That's a win for runners!

Thirdly, running (example) is limited, and it is sometimes advantageous to work out body parts in ways that are dissimilar to running to fix (example) muscle imbalances. The goal of many - if not most strength training exercises for running is not primarily building muscles, like a body builder.

[mikefromcraig]

Justiner,

So what you are saying is that doing strength training right before an ultramarathon would "interfere" with the ultramarathon performance. That's exactly my point. The strength training comes at a cost. The same principle would apply during training. Doing strength training the day before a hard training run would interfere with that training run. And vice versa. If a powerlifter ran a marathon the day before I heavy squat workout, that workout would suffer too.

Again, I'm completely open to the notion that the benefits from resistance training outweigh the costs. But in order to discuss the tradeoff we have to be honest that the costs do exist. Tomorrow is my big run day and if I did lower-body strength training today, my workout tomorrow would suffer. I've experimented with it many times and that's always the result.

In an effort to find common ground, I suppose if one only had 30 minutes four days a week to train, a 25 minute run and 5 minutes of resistance training could be better than 30 minutes of running but, as indicated by this thread, I have more time available than that.

[Gulf_Coast_Hiker]

Justiner,

So what you are saying is that doing strength training right before an ultramarathon would "interfere" with the ultramarathon performance. That's exactly my point. The strength training comes at a cost. The same principle would apply during training. Doing strength training the day before a hard training run would interfere with that training run. And vice versa. If a powerlifter ran a marathon the day before I heavy squat workout, that workout would suffer too.

Again, I'm completely open to the notion that the benefits from resistance training outweigh the costs. But in order to discuss the tradeoff we have to be honest that the costs do exist. Tomorrow is my big run day and if I did lower-body strength training today, my workout tomorrow would suffer. I've experimented with it many times and that's always the result.

In an effort to find common ground, I suppose if one only had 30 minutes four days a week to train, a 25 minute run and 5 minutes of resistance training could be better than 30 minutes of running but, as indicated by this thread, I have more time available than that.

I wish you the best in your Mt. Evans race and R2R. I think there has been some great discussion in this thread and hope you take away whatever may benefit you. I'm in the weight training camp, not only for running, but for any sport one participates in. I would not have had so many great experiences across many sports over many decades without it.