CalTopo Pro/Desktop

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twhalm
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Re: CalTopo Pro/Desktop

Post by twhalm »

I am also on some Caltopo legacy plan but I find it worth the price.

I use both the app and the website and the integration between the two is pretty seamless. I can't image using a separate program for each device.

There has only been a single feature that my paid tier doesn't have but it was pretty niche :)

Caltopo features I really like:
- Their Mapbuilder overlays
- Drawn line stats (gain, slope, coverage, etc)
- Land use overlay
- Collaborative features (you and your fiends can collaborate on maps)
- Export options for physical maps (don't use as much anymore)
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Jorts
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Re: CalTopo Pro/Desktop

Post by Jorts »

Caltopo is intuitive and has extensive features. Some that come to mind that are less often utilized:

Profile of a drawn line
sun exposure
cell coverage

When I started volunteering for SAR back in 2010 it was a hodgepodge of some members relying on GAIA, others Viewranger, etc. Now many teams use the SARTopo extension of Caltopo to coordinate and monitor team movements and search areas during missions.

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jdorje
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Re: CalTopo Pro/Desktop

Post by jdorje »

Caltopo's (Matt Jacobs) mapbuilder system really has the best maps by a very wide margin. AFAICT he makes them directly from USGS NED elevation arrays and OSM vectors, pulling from multiple other sources for the different layers. The amount of care is impressive is IMO worth a subscription payment.

But most apps let you set a custom source for offline downloads. In BCN that's currently

Code: Select all

https://img.caltopo.com/tile/mbt/%z/%x/%y.png
Or for instance:

https://img.caltopo.com/tile/mbt/12/846/1580.png
"I don't think about the past, and the future is a mystery. Only the present matters."
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HikerGuy
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Re: CalTopo Pro/Desktop

Post by HikerGuy »

I have the legacy basic plan. There are some subtle differences, but the mobile plan is the new equivalent of the legacy basic plan. If you use the mobile app, the $20/yr plan is a no brainer as it allows for offline map layer downloads. Also, you get unlimited private maps with the $20/yr plan. I considered upgrading to the pro plan for access to premium layers (live satellite and parcel data), but decided that there are other options for that premium layer data. For example, I use Sentinel Hub (https://apps.sentinel-hub.com/sentinel-playground/) for live satellite data.
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Re: CalTopo Pro/Desktop

Post by espressoself »

Appreciate all the replies here. I will probably allow Gaia premium to lapse after this year and send my money towards CalTopo instead, if for nothing other than the fact that I love their product so much.

Here is another question: Do any of you record tracks with the CalTopo app? Any comments on the accuracy?

I've only ever used Gaia or the native Apple Watch workout option. I know there are other threads out there on this topic, but Gaia tends to be a lot more accurate with regards to distance, but tends to underestimate the total gain of a route (sometimes, I have found, up to about 20%). On the other hand, it also records using a lot less battery life. Apple watch tends to be way over on both and always destroys my battery life. I also use Strava but haven't ever recorded on there, simply because I've gotten used to Gaia and similarly worry about battery life impact. But Strava is my dumping ground of recorded tracks and I love it for that. Also Strava usually corrects the distance and gain of my uploaded tracks to something that is more in line with what I mapped before heading out. Tempted to record a few outings on Strava and on CalTopo to see how they stack up.

Edit: I just went back through and spot checked a few of the Strava "corrections" and it looks like it actually inflates distance quite a bit beyond what is mapped. Here is one example. Recently hiked Crosier Mountain near Glen Haven. Gaia stats: 10.62 miles, 3,149'. Downloaded the GPX and imported into Strava: 11.10 miles, 3,225'. CalTopo stats as mapped: 9.86 miles, 3276'. So the elevation stats are closer in Strava, but it added an extra 5% to the (already inflated) distance.

Another example. I ran the workout app on my Apple watch the last time I hiked Twin Sisters and also tracked using Gaia. Gaia reported 7.45 miles and 2,395', Apple Watch has it at 8.66 miles, 2,955' (lol). Strava upload kept the 8.66 miles but reduced the gain to 2,484'. CalTopo mapped version is 7.3 miles and 2,533'.

Conclusion: Does any of this really matter? No. Am I obsessing over stupid details that no one cares about? Almost certainly. As a numbers guy, though, (and as much as I want to impress my 7 Strava followers with inflated stats) I want that sweet, sweet, good data
Last edited by espressoself on Fri Jun 02, 2023 3:07 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: CalTopo Pro/Desktop

Post by k_fergie »

espressoself wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 9:18 am Appreciate all the replies here. I will probably allow Gaia premium to lapse after this year and send my money towards CalTopo instead, if for nothing other than the fact that I love their product so much.

Here is another question: Do any of you record tracks with the CalTopo app? Any comments on the accuracy?

I've only ever used Gaia or the native Apple Watch workout option. I know there are other threads out there on this topic, but Gaia tends to be a lot more accurate with regards to distance, but tends to underestimate the total gain of a route (sometimes, I have found, up to about 20%). On the other hand, it also records using a lot less battery life. Apple watch tends to be way over on both and always destroys my battery life. I also use Strava but haven't ever recorded on there, simply because I've gotten used to Gaia and similarly worry about battery life impact. But Strava is my dumping ground of recorded tracks and I love it for that. Also Strava usually corrects the distance and gain of my uploaded tracks to something that is more in line with what I mapped before heading out. Tempted to record a few outings on Strava and on CalTopo to see how they stack up.
I have found that Caltopo tends to sandbag compared to what I record on Strava. But honestly, I trust Caltopo more, not sure what is actually more precise.
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Boggy B
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Re: CalTopo Pro/Desktop

Post by Boggy B »

Stats generated from raw data recorded by your devices will most likely be massively inflated.

I wanted to write something that calculates stats from my GPX tracks similarly to what CalTopo produces, because I liked that their profile stats appeared to be in the ballpark of reality. Luckily they generate those profiles in Javascript, so you can grab the minified JS and untangle it.

For distance, the sampling interval is shown on the profile and is configurable (click "expand" if needed then "resample")--default is ~100 feet. Note that this works in your stats' favor if your device's recording interval is greater than this value.
For gain/loss, they average every three points (at whatever sampling interval is used, if I recall).

This is still a "dumb" calculation since your track could be way off, and I haven't seen any devices that are immune to random GPS drift much less physical obstructions, but it's a decent compromise between the horrendous inflation of however Garmin, Strava, etc. calculate vs. manually sanitizing your tracks to include only points where you know you actually stood.

Find a trail on the MapBuilder mapset and draw a track that automatically locks to it. The generated profile stats should be very close to actuals. Then go hike it and compare to your device, Strava, etc.

[EDIT] Looks like CalTopo is not resampling distance (anymore?) and using the sampling interval only for gain/loss metrics. That explains why a recent track computed to 5.3 miles when it was definitely no more than 4. Bummer...
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Re: CalTopo Pro/Desktop

Post by BillMiddlebrook »

I can assure you that writing an advanced algorithm to “smooth” tracks is no small task. When I wrote the tracking functionality for the .com mobile apps, I spent a lot of time designing an algorithm that takes a lot into consideration, beyond just using my own version of the Ramer–Douglas–Peucker algorithm. Being both a math and computer science guy, I took it as a fun challenge! Much of my time ended up being sucked up by the intricacies of working with the different tools on Android vs. iOS. Gross.

Over the years, I’ve spent a lot of time manually smoothing gpx tracks to take out drift. Having done that so much, I was very interested in developing a routine that I could use on any gpx file.
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Re: CalTopo Pro/Desktop

Post by espressoself »

BillMiddlebrook wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 1:16 pm I can assure you that writing an advanced algorithm to “smooth” tracks is no small task. When I wrote the tracking functionality for the .com mobile apps, I spent a lot of time designing an algorithm that takes a lot into consideration, beyond just using my own version of the Ramer–Douglas–Peucker algorithm. Being both a math and computer science guy, I took it as a fun challenge! Much of my time ended up being sucked up by the intricacies of working with the different tools on Android vs. iOS. Gross.

Over the years, I’ve spent a lot of time manually smoothing gpx tracks to take out drift. Having done that so much, I was very interested in developing a routine that I could use on any gpx file.
I was not aware that the .com app had tracking functionality! Neat! Given the crappy forecast this weekend, maybe I'll head to a trail in the foothills and record some laps for comparison's sake.
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Re: CalTopo Pro/Desktop

Post by BillMiddlebrook »

espressoself wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 2:42 pm
BillMiddlebrook wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 1:16 pm I can assure you that writing an advanced algorithm to “smooth” tracks is no small task. When I wrote the tracking functionality for the .com mobile apps, I spent a lot of time designing an algorithm that takes a lot into consideration, beyond just using my own version of the Ramer–Douglas–Peucker algorithm. Being both a math and computer science guy, I took it as a fun challenge! Much of my time ended up being sucked up by the intricacies of working with the different tools on Android vs. iOS. Gross.

Over the years, I’ve spent a lot of time manually smoothing gpx tracks to take out drift. Having done that so much, I was very interested in developing a routine that I could use on any gpx file.
I was not aware that the .com app had tracking functionality! Neat! Given the crappy forecast this weekend, maybe I'll head to a trail in the foothills and record some laps for comparison's sake.
It does! I'd love to hear your feedback. It's certainly not intended to by a replacement for mapping apps like GAIA and CalTopo but rather provide tracking to people using the 14ers.com app on the trail because it has the 14er route descriptions. It also have basic KML and GPX exporting of tracks and waypoints. And you'll also notice there's a "smoothing" option on the track details page which provides a 2nd level of my algorithm, beyond the real-time smoothing that occurs during the actual tracking.
"When I go out, I become more alive. I just love skiing. The gravitational pull. When you ski steep terrain... you can almost get a feeling of flying." -Doug Coombs
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