How many finishers...really?

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osprey
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Re: How many finishers...really?

Post by osprey »

I’ve heard many talk about the scary jump on sunlight. This video makes it look so easy. Maybe because he’s possibly tall? Is it the hop down onto the 2nd boulder below the summit that is supposed to be tough?

I’ve also heard many people say that they only touched the summit with their hand so how many people have truly submitted all 58?
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One thing people aren't talking about is that on the other side of what you're seeing is a sheer cliff and the gap between the hop jump is several feet and drops down to like 30 ft. Technically it's pretty easy, mentally it isn't for most people.
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Roach implies that touching the summit with your hand counts as summiting Sunlight when he writes " The final move to the summit is the harder of the two moves. If you are tall, you can avoid the final move by reaching up and touching the highest point with your hand."
Roach also describes a second route to the Sunlight Summit that avoids the exposure of the jump down to the second boulder which is to climb the Class 5.0-5.2 slab of the 15 foot boulder leaning on the summit block.
This seems like a reasonable way to summit Sunlight but very few TR describe going up this route especially if one is not 6+ foot. Class 5.0 is harder than 4th Class but not by a huge amount.
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Re: How many finishers...really?

Post by d_baker »

osprey wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2024 7:21 pm
Roach also describes a second route to the Sunlight Summit that avoids the exposure of the jump down to the second boulder which is to climb the Class 5.0-5.2 slab of the 15 foot boulder leaning on the summit block.
This seems like a reasonable way to summit Sunlight but very few TR describe going up this route especially if one is not 6+ foot. Class 5.0 is harder than 4th Class but not by a huge amount.
The slab is how I did it, in mountaineering boots, in early/mid May, with a spotter.
I'm not 6+ feet, but I don't think height matters with the slab.
There was also snow buildup at base of slab, so from pictures I've seen when it's dry, maybe it wasn't as tall.

Ricky rijaca, no one has asked me for details on my summits either. So weird! I'm thinking these 14er rules are a sham!
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Re: How many finishers...really?

Post by JROSKA »

osprey wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2024 7:21 pm Roach implies that touching the summit with your hand counts as summiting Sunlight when he writes " The final move to the summit is the harder of the two moves. If you are tall, you can avoid the final move by reaching up and touching the highest point with your hand."

I’ve noticed that the true elites of the mountaineering community (Roach, Arnette, probably A&A etc) seem to be fully secure in their accomplishments and pedigree to the point where they won’t diminish someone’s “finisher” status for merely touching the Sunlight summit block. Doesn’t even seem like Roach or Arnette would diminish a finisher for not climbing the unofficial and unranked El Diente. That’s what separates the pro’s from the amateurs. Amateurs lack that security in what they’ve accomplished so they tend to be more judgmental and exclusive about stuff like that. Who belongs in the club and who doesn’t.
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Re: How many finishers...really?

Post by Jorts »

JROSKA wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2024 11:03 pm I’ve noticed that the true elites of the mountaineering community (Roach, Arnette, probably A&A etc) seem to be fully secure in their accomplishments and pedigree to the point where they won’t diminish someone’s “finisher” status for merely touching the Sunlight summit block. Doesn’t even seem like Roach or Arnette would diminish a finisher for not climbing the unofficial and unranked El Diente. That’s what separates the pro’s from the amateurs. Amateurs lack that security in what they’ve accomplished so they tend to be more judgmental and exclusive about stuff like that. Who belongs in the club and who doesn’t.
Maybe. Messner diminished plenty of 8000m finishers for lack of purity.
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Re: How many finishers...really?

Post by susanjoypaul »

JROSKA wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2024 11:03 pm I’ve noticed that the true elites of the mountaineering community (Roach, Arnette, probably A&A etc) seem to be fully secure in their accomplishments and pedigree to the point where they won’t diminish someone’s “finisher” status for merely touching the Sunlight summit block. Doesn’t even seem like Roach or Arnette would diminish a finisher for not climbing the unofficial and unranked El Diente. That’s what separates the pro’s from the amateurs. Amateurs lack that security in what they’ve accomplished so they tend to be more judgmental and exclusive about stuff like that. Who belongs in the club and who doesn’t.
Exactly.

If you've been on this site awhile, you'll notice it's always the same people bringing it up, too, and beating it to death. These guys...We ladies have a name for them, but I can't say it on a public forum :-D

I feel sorry for their wives.
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Re: How many finishers...really?

Post by rijaca »

JROSKA wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2024 11:03 pm .... the unofficial and unranked El Diente....
What? When did El Diente get removed from the list?

While not a member of CMC, I always considered CMC the arbitrator for the 14er list: "The CMC officially recognizes 54 14ers as the number required to be considered a list completer. We will accept climbers who pursue a 14er list with a different total, such as 55 or 58, as long as they complete the minimum of 54. The list of 54 includes all 52 named peaks over 14,000 feet with more than 300 feet of prominence, plus North Maroon Peak and El Diente Peak for their history and aesthetics. The CMC does not currently include Challenger Point, which is historically considered a subsummit of Kit Carson Peak."
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Re: How many finishers...really?

Post by SchralpTheGnar »

Is Messner a 14er finisher?
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Re: How many finishers...really?

Post by hokiehead »

I have a few distinct, but related, thoughts on this. It's a beautiful pedantic discussion. \:D/

1. to the above comments about gatekeeping and being secure in one's own accomplishments... absolutely.

2. I wouldn't dispute if someone considered Sunlight to be 'finished' or to have "achieved their goal" by touching the bottom of the summit block. For that matter, I wouldn't dispute if you call it a summit if you drive up Pikes or Blue Sky and walk over to the high point from the lot. I don't care if you call yourself a finisher having done all three of the above. Just be honest about how you did it. Don't claim, or imply, that you gained 3k' on all your summits if you didn't. Don't claim, or imply, that you stood on a summit if you touched a point 4' lower with your hand. Don't claim, or imply, that you're a "Colorado 14er finisher" if you skip Culebra.

3. one of the aspects of mountaineering that I love is the lack of a rulebook and governing body that would define these things. Mountaineering can mean very different things for different people. I'll focus on my standards and my lists and encourage you to focus on yours.

4. as we're using the English language here, it is worth calibrating on whether the use of the terms "summit" and "finish" are aligned with common definitions of those terms. 'summit' (noun) is usually defined as the highest natural point of the mountain; 'summit' (verb) is usually defined as reaching that point. it's fair to question if the word is being used correctly by saying "I reached the summit of Sunlight by touching the base of the block". But 'finish' allows for more subjectivity. That person could, correctly, say that they "finished Sunlight" or "achieved their intended goal on Sunlight".

Based on the common definitions of summit, I think the person who drove to the Pikes parking area and walked over to the high point has a stronger claim of "summitting" a 14er than the person who hiked from Purgatory and climbed to the landing below the summit block of Sunlight. No question the latter person did something a lot harder though.
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bdloftin77
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Re: How many finishers...really?

Post by bdloftin77 »

JROSKA wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2024 11:03 pm I’ve noticed that the true elites of the mountaineering community (Roach, Arnette, probably A&A etc) seem to be fully secure in their accomplishments and pedigree to the point where they won’t diminish someone’s “finisher” status for merely touching the Sunlight summit block. Doesn’t even seem like Roach or Arnette would diminish a finisher for not climbing the unofficial and unranked El Diente. That’s what separates the pro’s from the amateurs. Amateurs lack that security in what they’ve accomplished so they tend to be more judgmental and exclusive about stuff like that. Who belongs in the club and who doesn’t.
I don't know... Gerry Roach and John Kirk (two of the most distinguished peakbaggers I know) have criteria listed on their websites. Gerry takes reaching the actual top under ones own power as a given, and his conundrum is how much elevation gain seems satisfactory to call it a climb. John also agrees that at least some part of your body has to touch the summit, though he takes a more pragmatic approach in not requiring any min elevation gain as many summits don't practically allow for certain elevation gains (gaining 3000' on Two Buttes would require starting from at least central Kansas; gaining Elbert's prominence as Roach suggests would require starting from at least Rifle on I-70 or Hotchkiss on Hwy 133). I don't call out individuals, but I definitely hold that standard for myself. That's what makes certain lists much harder than others to complete! I had to recruit Veory to help lead Big Rock Candy Mountain and Noddle Heads, North before I could consider myself a Douglas county finisher. Had I just walked to the base of those and called it good... let's just say I couldn't handle that. :lol:

All that being said, it's probably not best practice to call out individuals on it unless they're publicly claiming to complete some sort of record.
hokiehead wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2024 7:51 am I have a few distinct, but related, thoughts on this. It's a beautiful pedantic discussion. \:D/

4. as we're using the English language here, it is worth calibrating on whether the use of the terms "summit" and "finish" are aligned with common definitions of those terms. 'summit' (noun) is usually defined as the highest natural point of the mountain; 'summit' (verb) is usually defined as reaching that point. it's fair to question if the word is being used correctly by saying "I reached the summit of Sunlight by touching the base of the block". But 'finish' allows for more subjectivity. That person could, correctly, say that they "finished Sunlight" or "achieved their intended goal on Sunlight".

Based on the common definitions of summit, I think the person who drove to the Pikes parking area and walked over to the high point has a stronger claim of "summitting" a 14er than the person who hiked from Purgatory and climbed to the landing below the summit block of Sunlight. No question the latter person did something a lot harder though.
100% agree. One is based on a person's individual goals and preferences, while the other is pretty black and white.
Last edited by bdloftin77 on Wed Oct 16, 2024 8:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How many finishers...really?

Post by supranihilest »

JROSKA wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2024 11:03 pmthe unofficial and unranked El Diente
El Diente Peak is official, just unranked.
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Re: How many finishers...really?

Post by greenonion »

supranihilest wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2024 8:38 am
JROSKA wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2024 11:03 pmthe unofficial and unranked El Diente
El Diente Peak is official, just unranked.
I officially tore up my ankle on El D after summiting this summer. Therefore it’s official
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Re: How many finishers...really?

Post by Jorts »

SchralpTheGnar wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2024 7:37 am Is Messner a 14er finisher?
Heard he didn't get 3000ft on Sherman so unfortunately he is not and I am a superior mountaineer to him.
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