How many finishers...really?

[daway8]

And just to throw another wrench in the Culebra numbers - if you check this site there are ~10 pages worth of results (at 25 per page) of people who have climbed Culebra MORE than once, many of them 3 times, some 5, 6, or 7 times or more.

So if you really want to nerd out, you'd have to add all those 10 pages worth of multiple summits for Culebra and subtract that from the overall number. But I'm not bored enough to do that...

[Scott P]

What ever happened to HYOH? Anyone who claims they hiked one or all 14ers should be given their due. There is no arbitrary tribunal that gets to decide otherwise.

There is no summit police and it should be that way. When it comes to climbing peaks, anyone can claim any summits they want and not be arrested.

While there are no real consequences for claiming Sunlight if you didn't reach the summit, it does go against the spirit of mountaineering.

Over the years there have been generally a very few accepted exceptions to claiming the summit when you didn't reach the top. For example, on Kanchenjunga climbers were supposed to stop a few feet from the summit because it was sacred. Stopping just short of the summit was and still is considered honorable and even more so than stepping on the summit. Climbers are always given credit for the climb.

Bross is another exception. A general consensus is made that because of the private property issues, you can get as high as you can without breaking the law and it's close enough. Private property is an understandable reason that I lot of people can understand and be on board with. I have stopped a few feet short to avoid private land too.

On flattish summits with multiple tiny rocks, it's hard to tell which one is highest. There are some mountains with huge summit blocks. On Monte Roraima for example, we climbed the point that was supposedly highest. This was in early 1996, but since then people claim to have the true summit somewhere else, especially since the massive summit block is spread across three countries and each country wants to claim that their side is the highest. Even on some of the Himalayan giants, it's hard to pin point the exact summit without some sort of recent technology, but climbers that did the peaks before that technology are usually given credit.

On Sunlight though, there are no private land issues and it's perfectly obvious where the summit is. Unlike a flat-ish summit, there is no question.

Although there are few exceptions for ascents, good cases can be made for claiming climbs of all of the above. I have never heard anywhere in any book, mountaineering community or organization, etc. that an acceptable exception or reason to claim a summit is that "the climb was too scary or difficult for me, so I'm going to claim the summit anyway".

Other than using LNT or not putting others in danger, there are no real rules in mountaineering and that's a good thing and should stay that way.

There are no laws, climbing police, or anything else concerning climbing a summit and it should always be that way, but it is generally accepted among all mountaineers that with only a very few exceptions (such as Kanchenjunga), you should reach the summit before claiming an ascent. While not a law, that's just part of the spirit of mountaineering.

Anyway, do HYOH though and set your own goals. Maybe the summit block of Sunlight isn't your goal and that's completely cool, even if you want to count it on your personal list and as a finish for you. That's OK.

This thread is about statistics though. From a statistical and numbers standpoint (no names ever have to be mentioned), the quantity of finishers should only include the ones who have summited Sunlight. This is about math and statics, not HYOH. On your own personal list, it's up to you what to count and what not to. Also, no one should be scorned for having a different personal list.

Anyway, I'll stick with my original statement pertaining to my guess about the numbers. While the number of 14er finishers will every be known with 100% accuracy, my own guess (with some justification) is that only about half of the finishers report it and about another half of those who do don't finish Sunlight so the two numbers more or less balance out. It's just a guess as to the numbers, not a condemnation.

[terrysrunning]

HYOH? Sure. Hike your own hike, enjoy the mountain however you want. But you don't get to make your own reality or lie about it because you don't like facts. If you didn't go to the actual top you didn't summit. If you didn't do Culebra you didn't finish the 14ers. "Trekking summit"? No such thing (Yes I know there is such a thing on some actual mountaineering summits, but not what we have in Colorado, and even in those circles it's by not universally accepted). You went as far as you felt comfortable or compelled, then say that. No one is judging anyone for hiking whatever they want. Only for claiming something that isn't true.
Summit of Sunlight; Enough of us have been to the top that I don't think it's an unreasonable expectation. And again, the top is the top. Would I call someone out for it? Probably not unless they made a big deal of it. I know I wouldn't have felt comfortable with myself otherwise. The day I did it there were 5 people that basically got there are the same time and we all got up there. I think that's typical so I think most have actually done it. Would be interesting to take a poll though (we'd have to account for people self-reporting unreliably and the bias of people who didn't go up there not responding to the poll though so doubtful we'd get an accurate estimate that way).
The 3,000 ft rule is just silly. Only even remotely useful on a 14ers official FKT. Lower summits it becomes comically irrelevant. I have a goal of climbing all the Green Mountains (21 of them by my count) in Colorado. There's one that's literally in a neighborhood W of Ft Collins, and I'd have to hike from basically Ft Morgan to get 3k gain. I did one a few weeks ago that's basically a bump on a plateau above the Black Canyon of the Gunnison; I parked a mile from the summit just so I could call it a "hike" when I hiked the last mile of the road to the "summit" and got 300 ft of elevation gain. I live at the base of Green Mountain in Lakewood (6,859') and I would have to hike from Kansas to get 3,000 ft. Would I count it if I took an e-bike up the fire road? No, but I do when I leave from my front door 2.4 miles and 900' away. We gotta use some common sense I think. I think you'd find that very few, even and maybe especially among the finishers, care if you parked below Kite Lake or Guanella Pass.
Also literally no one didn't hike Culebra because of the "cost". If you live in the Denver Metro, you probably spent more getting to and doing the Wilsons than Culebra. It's like the gas money from a couple trips to other mountains. You might be bad at math and not want to pay because you think they're ripping you off. But if you've done the rest of the 14ers 150 bucks is a drop in the bucket.

[onebyone]

Also literally no one didn't hike Culebra because of the "cost". If you live in the Denver Metro, you probably spent more getting to and doing the Wilsons than Culebra. It's like the gas money from a couple trips to other mountains. You might be bad at math and not want to pay because you think they're ripping you off. But if you've done the rest of the 14ers 150 bucks is a drop in the bucket.

I think there are more than you think you won't climb it because of the $150, more out of principle than anything. I was almost one of those people, which is why I finished on Culebra. lol .

As far as the Sunlight block goes, that's a non issue for me personally. I did it of course.

[CaptainSuburbia]

Also literally no one didn't hike Culebra because of the "cost". If you live in the Denver Metro, you probably spent more getting to and doing the Wilsons than Culebra. It's like the gas money from a couple trips to other mountains. You might be bad at math and not want to pay because you think they're ripping you off. But if you've done the rest of the 14ers 150 bucks is a drop in the bucket.

I think there are more than you think you won't climb it because of the $150, more out of principle than anything. I was almost one of those people, which is why I finished on Culebra. lol .

As far as the Sunlight block goes, that's a non issue for me personally. I did it of course.

Best to climb Culebra in winter with Red to keep it at $150 in case you start working on other list. I was dumb the first time and climbed it at the end of March before I knew winter peaks were a thing or Red was a thing. I paid another $150 for my winter summit and added Red.

[dwoodward13]

Also literally no one didn't hike Culebra because of the "cost". If you live in the Denver Metro, you probably spent more getting to and doing the Wilsons than Culebra. It's like the gas money from a couple trips to other mountains. You might be bad at math and not want to pay because you think they're ripping you off. But if you've done the rest of the 14ers 150 bucks is a drop in the bucket.

I think there are more than you think you won't climb it because of the $150, more out of principle than anything. I was almost one of those people, which is why I finished on Culebra. lol .

As far as the Sunlight block goes, that's a non issue for me personally. I did it of course.

Best to climb Culebra in winter with Red to keep it at $150 in case you start working on other list. I was dumb the first time and climbed it at the end of March before I knew winter peaks were a thing or Red was a thing. I paid another $150 for my winter summit and added Red.

Or just go ahead and pay $500 for the bicents and get Red/Culebra in the process (only an option in summer)

[Veory]

What ever happened to HYOH? Anyone who claims they hiked one or all 14ers should be given their due. There is no arbitrary tribunal that gets to decide otherwise.

While there are no real consequences for claiming Sunlight if you didn't reach the summit, it does go against the spirit of mountaineering.

Not really adding much, just wanted to say I 100% agree with Scott's points.

Do I try to get the exact highest rock of a flat summit? Absolutely. Do I care if other people do? Not at all. But Sunlight's summit block is not arbitrary, and you know it's going to be there. I lose no respect for people who don't do it because they aren't prepared/ scared. But I do not respect a summit that doesn't go to the top in the "spirit of mountaineering". To do so would be, in my opinion, disrespectful to the folks who had to come back, bring rope, or did it despite their fear.

Don't bring the mountain down to your level, improve yourself or learn skills until you can achieve it.

This is only for people who claim to finish, I can't, nor want to tell anyone what makes a worthwhile time in the mountains.

[rijaca]

Anyway, I'll stick with my original statement pertaining to my guess about the numbers. While the number of 14er finishers will every be known with 100% accuracy, my own guess (with some justification) is that only about half of the finishers report it and about another half of those who do don't finish Sunlight so the two numbers more or less balance out. It's just a guess as to the numbers, not a condemnation.

Why do think that only half the peeps reporting finishing have actually reached the high point of Sunlight?

[Veory]

Anyway, I'll stick with my original statement pertaining to my guess about the numbers. While the number of 14er finishers will every be known with 100% accuracy, my own guess (with some justification) is that only about half of the finishers report it and about another half of those who do don't finish Sunlight so the two numbers more or less balance out. It's just a guess as to the numbers, not a condemnation.

Why do think that only half the peeps reporting finishing have actually reached the high point of Sunlight?

I was up there this year and shared the summit area with about 10 others and only 1 or 2 of them actually went to the summit.

[daway8]

Anyway, I'll stick with my original statement pertaining to my guess about the numbers. While the number of 14er finishers will every be known with 100% accuracy, my own guess (with some justification) is that only about half of the finishers report it and about another half of those who do don't finish Sunlight so the two numbers more or less balance out. It's just a guess as to the numbers, not a condemnation.

Why do think that only half the peeps reporting finishing have actually reached the high point of Sunlight?

I was up there this year and shared the summit area with about 10 others and only 1 or 2 of them actually went to the summit.

Both times I've been up there, there were several people up top but only roughly half bothered to go to the true high point.

This is all very anecdotal but it seems there's abundant anecdotal evidence for a significant percentage of people considering the base of the summit block to be "good enough."

[bdloftin77]

When I went up this year, a handful of middle-aged guys also ventured closed, but didn't reach the summit. When we got back to camp, a handful of younger guys camping nearby did say they went to the top. Just anecdotal, but similar story - about half and half.

[climbingcue]

Why do think that only half the peeps reporting finishing have actually reached the high point of Sunlight?

I was up there this year and shared the summit area with about 10 others and only 1 or 2 of them actually went to the summit.

I have done Sunlight twice and also experienced the same thing both times. More than half of the people up there both times did not touch the true summit.