Class 3/4 route crux comparisons

[peterkfes]

Hey folks;
I have a class 3/4 route crux comparison question. This topic’s come up in past threads but failing to quickly find one that specifically addressed what I’d like to learn has me starting fresh. A shout out to Bill and the ‘14er routes by difficulty’ list...a useful and appreciated guide. It’s a confidence booster to say I’ve climbed this one and my next scheduled peak is listed above it so I should be okay.

I’m at 45 of the 58 and in recent years have come to identify with a group on this site that sits in the high 30s to low 40s regarding shared comments and advice. I also pay particular attention to fellow climbers in my age group, at 71 I very much enjoy hearing others talk about their adventures. Starting with Longs in 2011, Wetterhorn in 2021, and last year Crestone Peak and Wilson Peak I’m in the thick of this group of class 3’s. If Crestone Needle and Mt Wilson/El Diente from Kilpacker go well this summer Chicago Basin is next followed by a couple peaks in the Elks. I feel like the varied class 3 experiences I’ve had provide reference points looking ahead to upcoming cruxes. I’m anticipating that four peaks are beyond my comfort zone because of class 4 ranking and exposure. I’m curious if the group I identify with feels similarly; North Maroon, Pryamid, Capital, and Little Bear seem to be beyond my reach. Sunlight is in a separate category for me, I’m planning on climbing to the summit block and if the final step isn’t in the cards I’m not claiming it on this site. That said, my personal list will log the peak with an asterisk knowing I was right there under the summit and my grandkids will enjoy the story.

I’m feeling okay with Eolus-North Eolus, Maroon, and Snowmass. This doesn’t mean they’re automatic, just that they seem doable compared to what I’ve done. I’d like to hear others’ experiences...“If you did Peak X you should be fine with Peak Y’s crux”. For instance, on Wilson Peak I found the backside traverse after the Gladstone saddle to be as challenging as the final pitch after the false summit, especially on the way down with tired legs.

Crestone Needle. How do the crossover vs class 4 direct cruxes compare to what I’ve experienced? For me, Longs required lots of concentration past the keyhole but then Wetterhorn’s final pitch was surprisingly fun after pysching myself out over it for several years. Crestone Peak and Wilson Peak required careful hand and footholds but were not uncomfortable, exposure wise. That said and excluding Wetterhorn, the three others were grueling, exhausting climbs but among my most satisfying and memorable because of that.

Little Bear. How much of the angst in the hourglass is rockfall threat? I’m slow and start weekday climbs closer to midnight than dawn so I’m usually alone or nearly so up near summits. If rockfall caused by someone above me isn’t a concern how does the hourglass’s climbing compare to completed pitches? If I’m able to do Maroon how do North Maroon and Pyramid compare, crux vs crux? Capital is Capital, I doubt I’d consider it because the knife edge and the climbing after it look and sound intimidating.

I waited for that Logan thread to run out of steam, everyone got twitchy for understandable reasons as it reached its zenith. Here’s to resuming a friendly mountaineering discussion. Yes, I have plenty of pictures and personal trip notes of all my climbs. No GPS data though, haven’t felt the need to document at that level, not interested in putting how slow I am out there.
Thanks for sharing your experiences,
Peter

[hellmanm]

Crushing it at 71 -- what an inspiration! As a lover of loose rock, take this with a grain of salt, but I'm happy to chime in:

1. For Sunlight, find a partner with a rope if the block is important. I had fun ropeless, even as a timid climber, but extra precautions are totally reasonable. The biggest lesson from the Eoluses is learning how to deal with sustained scrambling (in addition to the backpacking ofc). If you're in a good headspace after that, you'll like the mental game of a lot of the peaks to come.

2. North Maroon and Pyramid are similar to each other -- if you can do one, you're in the ballpark for the other. Both are 95% class 3, though -- class 4 only really felt appropriate for a move or two in N Maroon's crux (which, btw, if you do a lot of digging online, you'll see that it can be bypassed at class 3. Be careful, though -- I found the bypass my first time but not before cliffing myself out going the wrong way). I think N Maroon's crux is a bit like Lindsey's NW Ridge if you were to go straight up (as opposed to Lindsey’s class 3 way climber's left). In each case, the exposure is significant but not "fall for 1,000 feet"-type of terrain. Both are easier than South, though -- S. Maroon is a very long day with complex routefinding when you're tired, even though the moves themselves are easier.

3. I did the needle via the crossover. The move itself is tricky, and the fin you hop onto is exposed, but I'd do it that way again if I had to go back. Sustained class 4 walls unroped are not my thing. I think it's relatively similar in difficulty to that last move getting out of the trough on Longs (with the rest of the fin similar to the narrows but more going up vs going across). The Needle has more dangers, though -- broken hand pass is underrated, and even though I love loose rock, I don't love broken hand pass other than for the pictures. Make sure if you take the crossover route to pay attention on the way up to where you enter the West Gully area -- like Kit Carson, you can get yourself into trouble if you miss one of the turns on the way down.

4. Snowmass was top-5-hardest 14er for me, but I did an alt route. Curious what others think.

5. Capitol is legit -- you're correct to be wary. The routefinding is easier than expected, though. It's actually a lot more fun than Little Bear in many ways.

6. Little Bear has everything to do with conditions. Recent rainfall (to loosen up rocks and ruin the small holds in the crux), ice (the hourglass is shaded), and other climbers, are your biggest dangers. Your shoes matter here -- I had a blast in my approach shoes, and my partner struggled with the small holds in regular hiking boots. I think the rockfall risk here is spooky, and the climbing can be too. It's not the hardest 14er, but it's on my "never again" list at least via the hourglass.

[PJ88]

I am right there where you are and won't be much help, but thought I would throw in my two cents where I could. I did Snowmass as a backpack up the standard route last summer. The hike in was a little long with my..... less than utralight pack. It is easy grade and beautiful though.

I did not think the climb day was anything harder than what you have done, just a little tedious. The snowmass was about half full. It is a climb up a steep headwall full of scree, then boulder hopping similar to the boulder field on Longs, then crampons up the snow slope. The hardest part for me was transitioning from snow to the rock at the top as I am not super experienced with snow climbing. The back side of the ridge is full of large, loose talus. It isn't difficult, you just have to make sure nothing is going to move too much on you. The closest thing that comes to mind for me is working your way up Ellingwood from the saddle between it and Blanca.

Hope this helps!

[Veory]

There's no shame in having a partner and a rope, regardless of if you end up needing it!

If you really would like to tag sunlight, bring a very short rope and some climbing shoes. Number one reason I saw people not summit was because their shoes felt slippery on slab.

It doesn't sound like you're a very experienced technical climber, but there are a couple harder routes on little bear with less rockfall danger. Again, if you find a willing lead climber, you can get up quite safely, and then rapel the difficulties!

I encourage all folks who are nervous about particular ascents to learn some ropework. It's very rewarding to learn, gives you an extra margin of safety and confidence, and forces you to make some new friends with a trad rack haha.

Answering some of the other Qs, I thought North Maroon and Pyramid were not that hard with the exception of the 10-20 feet surrounding the crux. The crux on North Maroon is also a chimney, so I think you'd have a hard time falling out of it. The needle has the advantage of very solid rock, again with proper sticky shoes. Capitol is indeed a beast, but maybe best saved for last once you've built up the necessary confidence on the others!

[zootloopz]

My time on the Crestone Needle (twice downclimbing after doing the traverse) leads me to personally rank it as 'harder' / more scrambling than my experiences on North Maroon and Pyramid. The upside is the rock felt pretty solid which I'm sure you experienced on Crestone Peak.

Sunlight's summit block is definitely no gimme, but I saw multiple people spotted on the downclimb and even assisted with finding foot holds off of the summit block. A lanky competent partner can go a long way here.

This leaves Capitol and Little Bear. Thankfully you have 4 route choices for Little Bear -- I would give some consideration to the SW Ridge if you don't mind slogging talus most of the way. There is also the West Ridge Direct bypass which has some information on this website as the potential nicest route that avoids the hourglass.

Capitol is obviously one way on and one way off. It is a worthy objective to leave as a finisher, and I'm sure you could find another experienced partner to join you on a weekday to avoid the weekend rockfall potential once you've gotten to this point. I wouldn't write it off completely, the knife edge is intimidating but you can almost walk alongside it using it as a handrail. Buttscooting is also pretty effective. The main thing is having an excellent forecast and getting back to K2 before anything rolls in, which it sounds like you're fairly capable of.

[DeTour]

I’m pretty much in complete agreement with Hellman, with the exception that I haven’t done Little Bear.

I thought the crossover move on Crestone Needle was one of the hardest individual moves I’ve encountered, and worthy of a class 4 rating IMO. Harder than any individual move on the peaks you’ve listed; harder than any one move on Pyramid. The Needle crossover is a short lateral move, not up - only 2-3 long steps. But you have to get by an awkward bulge lacking easy grips. I found the rest of the Needle standard route to be pure fun. Steep, some significant exposure, but the grippy Crestone conglomerate made it pretty easy. Getting up Broken Hand Pass is sometimes overlooked - there are some pretty difficult spots there.

Regarding that “if X, then Y” comparison - I rate Pyramid, North Maroon, Eolus, Crestone Peak and Needle, and I suppose El Diente if done the “right” way, as pretty similar in difficulty. Mt. Wilson via the traverse I suppose a step up in difficulty, but just a bomber classic experience. I descended from Mt. Wilson into Kilpacker Basin; it seems like climbing it via that route would be in the same category as the others.

The chimney on North Maroon is indeed hard, a true c4 move, but not highly exposed. It took me a second try to get up the initial move into the chimney. Once in it, the holds were solid once you find them. A couple were long reaches and/or blind - you had to reach up and over a rock above to feel them.

Don’t underestimate Maroon Peak. The climbing may not be the hardest in technical terms, but so much jumbled, loose, potentially dangerous terrain. Bill Middlebrook rates it in its own category as the hardest routefinding of any standard 14er route.

I think there is a tendency to make too much of a class 3 vs. class 4 rating. One, the difference is often minimal, with opinions varying as to which move is which rating. Two, there are many other factors going into overall difficulty, like loose rock, tricky routefinding, length/elevation gain, etc. The four-category risk rating that Bill created for this site - in addition to the class rating - is a terrific tool for gauging overall difficulty.

[Eli Boardman]

I think there is a tendency to make too much of a class 3 vs. class 4 rating. One, the difference is often minimal, with opinions varying as to which move is which rating. Two, there are many other factors going into overall difficulty, like loose rock, tricky routefinding, length/elevation gain, etc. The four-category risk rating that Bill created for this site - in addition to the class rating - is a terrific tool for gauging overall difficulty.

Another way of saying this is that all the 14ers are at most class 3...

I generally agree with what you're saying, but there are a lot of non-14er peaks where the class 4 vs. class 3 distinction is much less debatable.

[HikesInGeologicTime]

Disclaimer that I suck at and also hate scrambling/climbing, so take the advice with as many grains of salt as it’s worth:

I was roped up/guided (both professionally and by friends who had gear and knew how to use it) for my summits of Little Bear, the Chicago Basin group, Pyramid, and N. Maroon, and I personally absolutely needed to be roped up for LB, Sunlight, Pyramid, and N. Maroon. Probably goes back to that whole not good at/hate scrambling thing; I did not have the innate skills, and I lacked the intrinsic motivation to build them, but the Hourglass, Sunlight’s summit block, various parts of the last 1000’ of Pyramid (which I fell off of on my first attempt, hence the inspiration to hire guides), and NM’s chimney were too lacking in holds I felt comfortable with, so I fully believe that if I hadn’t been roped up, I likely would’ve fallen (again, in the case of Pyramid). But I am also not athletic, so I further fully believe that most people who get far enough into the fourteeners are capable of finding ways past those obstacles without needing backup. As far as rockfall in the Hourglass…yeah, going on a (theoretically) less busy day is your best bet. Anything coming down from higher on the mountain is going to wind up there, so I’d recommend minimizing your risk as much as you can.

I thought Capitol and Crestone Needle also sucked, but I found them to be tedious rather than technically challenging. The move at the top of the Trough on Longs is, imho, harder than any move(s) on either of those two if you take your time and stick to the easiest possible routes, so as long as you study route descriptions and trip reports beforehand and pick sunny days to do them, you likely won’t have any major issues. Do take care when you’re coming down Needle, though, because the East Gully has lots of tiny, loose garbage on top of the holds that I’m sure will get cleared off in time as the route gets used more, but for now, I don’t know that it’s possible to go down it without setting at least a few pieces of gravel off.

As for the Class 3s, ehhh, they were also tedious and annoying but doable with a clear enough day and studying the routes/going with people who knew what they were doing, as far as I was concerned. I personally think that if you did Crestone Peak already, you’re ready to suffer through the rest.

[Veory]

Another way of saying this is that all the 14ers are at most class 3...

I generally agree with what you're saying, but there are a lot of non-14er peaks where the class 4 vs. class 3 distinction is much less debatable.

I climbed the needle without using my hands a couple years ago, does that mean I can ask Bill to downgrade it to class 2?

[masonzastrow]

Although I have a handful of 3&4 left, (Bells, Wilson group, Chicago basin, Snowmass and Lindsey), I'd say that I've only had two moments that really gave me pause and made me rethink what I was doing. The first was downclimbing the east gully on the Needle. Going up, I was joking with my partner about how it wasn't really class 4, and going down, I slowed to a crawl to find a path I was comfortable with. Only about 60 vertical feet were like that, though. The other time was on the West Ridge Indirect route for Little Bear, which Daway and CaptainSuburbia have excellent reports on. On the ridge proper, I went up a rib that looked intimidating from below and was incredibly exposed. When I got to the top, my partners found an alternate route that kept things at low 4 and which we used to descend. I'd take that compared to the rockfall in the hourglass any day of the week.

All this is to say, I think class 4 puts you in positions where you rely on heavily on your route finding skill, at high consequence. Thousands of people have done every class 3 and 4 standard route, so you know there's a way to the top that is manageable to the risk tolerance of such a large group. Finding it is the real challenge, which is a great reason to go with a second or third set of eyes.

[PikaSteve]

Crestone Peak in one day is a good measuring stick for your remaining peaks--long approach hike followed by the extra challenge for Broken Hand Pass followed by steep Red Gully climbing to the saddle and an even steeper section to the summit. After finally summiting Crestone Peak on my fourth try (three turnarounds mostly fitness/timing related), I had about 10 remaining CO 14ers. Retirement allowed me to focus on my fitness base and do more pre-hike research on routefinding for each trip. Also, I became able to wait for a perfect weather forecast for each climb.

I thought Pyramid Peak's last 500' felt similar to Crestone Peak's last 1000', just a little bit steeper (if on route), looser rocks and less obvious route finding. Maroon Peak felt just as long as Crestone Peak but with more routefinding, exertion and loose rock above 13000'. Mt Wilson SW slopes via Kilpacker felt almost as long as Crestone Peak (minus the reascent of Broken Hand Pass), with a final routefinding challenge of crossing over a rib from one gully of loose rocks to another.

Besides routefinding, weather forecasts and fitness, my other challenge was actual climbing. I had to turn around on Little Bear at the narrowest part of the hourglass when I could not ascend the steepest ten foot section. Luckily, no one else was above me as I tried for thirty minutes to get past this one steep section at the tightest funnel point of the hourglass. I would say climbing and rockfall risk are both equal challenges for the hourglass route. For me, the game changer was approach shoes. I came back two weeks later and ascended the hourglass with no issues. Approach shoes (plus 14ers.com research, especially daway8 trip reports) were helpful for remaining summits: North Maroon, Capitol, Sunlight, Eolus, North Eolus. You might find my trip reports helpful for slow hiker perspective: https://www.14ers.com/php14ers/triprepo ... trip=21688

[Jay521]

Others have stated much of what I would add and they probably have said it better than I could but I will offer a couple thoughts that apply to me and perhaps will apply to you as well.

Basic info is that I am 76 and NOT an uber climber at all. I believe that climbing - like so many things - is more mental than physical which is good cuz I don't have a lot of physical prowess...

I did Pyramid a couple years ago and North Maroon this past summer and I honestly thought that N Maroon was a tad easier.

I did Crestone Peak and Needle as separate day trips - long days for sure with the additional 2.5 hour drive each way. I was in my late 60's then and I'm not sure I could do that now - someone else would have to drive or I'd have to camp. I honestly didn't think either peak was all that difficult and I loved the Needle. Didn't like the Peak all that much probably because coming back up Broken Hand Pass really tuckered me out. And I swear they added a couple miles to the road back to the parking area while I was on that mountain...

For me, the key with any difficult peak is having a solid (and younger and stronger) partner and other than Wetterhorn and Longs, I have always had someone I trusted with me. Having a good partner really boosted my confidence.

Good luck!!!!!