Ultra Runner in Court for Cutting Switchback

[RhodoRose]

Reminds me of the time I was hiking the switchbacks down Barr Trail, when I heard a thrashing noise and looked to see a woman plowing straight down the hillside, sending rocks and branches flying. I wouldn't have said anything if I'd known that a one-word utterance of "Hey!" was an invitation to a 10-minute rant, laced with profanities, being called every name in the book, about how Native Americans like her have a right to go anywhere they damned well please, while white people, who are all evil colonists, have no right to go anywhere and "should all go back to Europe"... Okaaaaay

[nyker]

Rainy day here so can add to the rant

I think these mountain athletes are amazing in what they can do and I'm impressed by their fitness and ability to have the time to do these things.
However, when it comes at a cost of environmental damage and potentially hurting others then we need to tighten the rules.
Sometimes it's just a matter of treating the mountain and others around you with the proper amount of respect.

Look at any other athletic event where someone is seeking the FKT or best score, where making a slight minor infraction of the rules disqualifies you
and possibly invites you to receive a fine for breaking the customary rules of that sport. If these athletes want proper respect and credibility and have their times count,
they should follow the rules just like every other sport and athletic endeavor and not get upset if there's ramifications for breaking the rules designed to level the playing
field. Also, when someone is a paid (sponsored) athlete, openly posts on social media about their accomplishments seeking attention and public accolades,
they open themselves up to public scrutiny.

On the point of respect for others this shouldn't be understated especially once someone publicly promotes themselves for money and fame.
I remember one day we were hiking up very early in the morning, enjoying a nice peaceful outing and a trail runner coming up from the back of us, breaks the silence by
screaming and yelling to get out of the way because "I'm coming through, get out of the way" as if he was God's gift and owned the mountain.
At that moment, there was also no real safe area to "move away" and my hiking partner was not feeling well.
When we did not move off the trail as quickly as they would have liked, they gave us an evil look, kept mumbling under their breath and then turned around shot us another
look-to-kill and said F-U to us. That person is lucky they didn't stop.

That sort of arrogance and lack of respect is completely uncalled for. In the process that person also cut switchbacks to get around us but that wasn't the point.
Granted I'm sure that was a bad apple and not representative of all trail runners seeking PR's but it does make an impression where stereotypes form for the next one we see.
I think some of the hostility towards these athletes is due to at least in regard to the selfishness and lack of respect some display to others and the environment around them
all for the sake of their individual objectives. If FKTers consider themselves "above the law" thinking that the rules don't apply to them,
this fosters ill feeling among the rest of the normal hiking groups. When they do break the rules, then more weight of the law may come upon them as a result.

Turning to this specific example, in addition to the other negatives around cutting switchbacks (erosion, mountain health, washouts, trail maintenance etc.),
on this mountain specifically, Teton; you have many climbers here where they're doing a once in a lifetime climb in a very exposed environment, where many struggle
with high altitude with bad possibly fatal consequence for something going wrong and recent fatalities to look to where following the rules and helping to create a safer environment
is far more important than say whether someone cuts a switchback on Elbert or even the crowded Mount Whitney main trail where the main concern is more environmental
and erosion control and in part managing crowds.

Imagine a situation where you have an FKT'er barreling down the steep exposed flanks of the Grand perhaps in an icy section, trying to shave every second
off and accidentally sliding into someone or causing someone to be forced to move to a less stable place or dropping rocks on a group of less
experienced folks being guided up the mountain all roped together, then as a result of the FKT'er trying to race around that group or being off route
(where being less traveled might have more rockfall risk), someone from that party slips and falls, itself being a tragedy but possibly taking
others down who are roped together with them; all because someone's being somewhat reckless in a hazardous environment just to save 10 seconds
and using the mountain like a 10k field and track event. Speed is safety in mountains...up to an inflection point, where the risk increases the other way.
And, in a National Park, where the government will be liable if something goes wrong, regardless of whatever waivers people sign.
Also, as a sponsored (read: paid) employee, does the cash strapped National Park Service get a cut if his royalties or earnings?
Probably not, possibly another reason he is being singled out.

Maybe there's some compromise to be reached for doing this sort of thing; maybe to do it on a day when less experienced recreational or tourist
climbers are not on the mountain. Or use a different route. Or have certain days set aside for FKT attempts.

These are serious athletic endeavors just like any other higher-end competition and the climbers train extensively for this, like any other extreme athletic event.
In other formal races or Marathons or Olympic trials, ski events, swim events or even car races, those events are generally done when tourists and citizens are
cleared off streets and mountains to let the athletes do their thing. Maybe we need to start approaching mountain climbing FKT'ers with the same separations
especially when they are actually sponsored athletes. By segregating them and making them into formal legitimate events, where they sign up
and announce their intentions and start on their "race day" climbers don't have to worry about bumping into and getting around slower climbers or guided
groups which are typically inherently slower than solo climbers. And, who knows, they may get even faster times for themselves.
But the flip side of this, is it fair to close a mountain off to the rest of the outdoor community in this case?

Similarly a lot of people have cars that are pretty fast and may want to see how fast they can go, I totally understand that as someone who
used to build muscle cars as a teenager. Instead of racing them down on Main Street at 5:00 pm. rush hour, maybe best to do that
on a closed track where they can go all out with less restriction and less worry about non-racers around them and get their fastest time, rather
than doing it bothering everyone else around them and potentially putting others in danger or possibly have a nightmare accident taking the lives of
unrelated innocents around them.

[seannunn]

I remember one of CaveDog's manifestos regarding FKT's (of which he set many back in the day).
The salient point that he spelled out well was to the effect that any new FKT must be done in at least as high of a style as the previous FKT, if not better.
In other words, if the current FKT for the 14ers includes 58 of them, you can't do 57 or 56 or fewer and call it a new FKT, even if it is faster than the old FKT.
So unless the previous FKT involved using the shortcut, the new one can't either.
Of course CaveDog isn't God, so he doesn't get to make the rules universally. But someone with as many FKT's as he had (and as long as he held the 14ers FKT for) should have a lot of sway when it comes to making the rules.

Sean Nunn
Peculiar, MO
FKT record holder for 14 laps of the hill just off Bannister Road in KCMO known as Lowenstein Road

[seano]

Reminds me of the time I was hiking the switchbacks down Barr Trail, when I heard a thrashing noise and looked to see a woman plowing straight down the hillside, sending rocks and branches flying. I wouldn't have said anything if I'd known that a one-word utterance of "Hey!" was an invitation to a 10-minute rant, laced with profanities, being called every name in the book, about how Native Americans like her have a right to go anywhere they damned well please, while white people, who are all evil colonists, have no right to go anywhere and "should all go back to Europe"... Okaaaaay

Did that actually happen? If so, you should name and shame, because that level of stupidity is probably a heritable disease. But I'm skeptical that it actually happened, and that you're not just trying to stir some on a weekend.

[Monte Meals]

^ " But I'm skeptical that it actually happened "

Knock Knock .

The Joseph McCarthy hearings are awaiting your testimony.

[seano]

^ " But I'm skeptical that it actually happened "

Knock Knock .

The Joseph McCarthy hearings are awaiting your testimony.

Maybe I'm just being stupid, but I don't get the connection to communism or witch-hunting. It just seemed like either extremely abnormal behavior, or a story designed to push lots of people's buttons on this forum.

Whatever.

[SkaredShtles]

<snip>
And come on, I say you can only complain if you have never in your life cut one single switchback or set one foot off trail.

This is absolute rubbish.

[Scott P]

I have never cut a switchback (unless it was on snow).

So you have cut a switchback when the rules of your game allows it?

Jail. Straight to jail.

Reediculous comment. I'm talking about skiing or snowshoeing where all the trails and switchbacks are buried in snow. Most of the time you can't even tell where the summer trail is. There is no harm is walking or skiing on snow.

Anyone who cuts a switchback when the trails aren't buried on snow deserves jail time or worse.

[justiner]

or worse?

[astranko]

I have never cut a switchback (unless it was on snow).

So you have cut a switchback when the rules of your game allows it?

Jail. Straight to jail.

Reediculous comment. I'm talking about skiing or snowshoeing where all the trails and switchbacks are buried in snow. Most of the time you can't even tell where the summer trail is. There is no harm is walking or skiing on snow.

Anyone who cuts a switchback when the trails aren't buried on snow deserves jail time or worse.

So there's never any snow-thin ground you walk on? When you hit a bare patch, you backtrack in your waist-deep trench to find more powder to plow through?

Ultimately I'm not the one you have to justify your LAWLESSNESS to. The marshal is gonna enjoy locking you up and throwing away the key. I, in my magnanimity, only hope you have to learn your lesson from inside a cell.

[Scott P]

So you have cut a switchback when the rules of your game allows it?

Jail. Straight to jail.

Reediculous comment. I'm talking about skiing or snowshoeing where all the trails and switchbacks are buried in snow. Most of the time you can't even tell where the summer trail is. There is no harm is walking or skiing on snow.

Anyone who cuts a switchback when the trails aren't buried on snow deserves jail time or worse.

So there's never any snow-thin ground you walk on? When you hit a bare patch, you backtrack in your waist-deep trench to find more powder to plow through?

Ultimately I'm not the one you have to justify your LAWLESSNESS to. The marshal is gonna enjoy locking you up and throwing away the key. I, in my magnanimity, only hope you have to learn your lesson from inside a cell.

The above is one of the stupidest post every to make it onto this website. You know exactly what I mean. If there is bare ground, I wouldn't cut a switchback.

Only losers cut switchbacks. Don't be a loser.

[justiner]

Scott, I love ya but you are acting like you're letting emotions take over too much in your replies. We're all better than school yard name calling.