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Carl_Healy wrote: ↑Sun Nov 22, 2020 7:54 am Thanks all for the comments.

I do think it's interesting that there's some back and forth on whether the Nepals are really a warm boot or not.
And yes as I mentioned I know they are overkill for for something like a Class 2 route up Huron but part of the reason I bought them was also to have them for a while down the road when I'd improve my skill set enough to climb more technically in winter. Even if warmth isn't the focus of the boots I feel like my feet shouldn't have been as cold wearing them as they were...

Alpine Guy wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:49 pm You aren't moving fast enough.

Yes I think that was definitely a big factor as well. As mentioned I was with a group. Two of us actually forged ahead breaking trail at a really fast pace and I only really noticed that my toes were getting cold when we stopped at a switchback high above and waited for the rest to catch up. I should have mentioned that initially.
Even seemed like I started to feel again maybe a mile away from the trailhead on the way down and I was going down pretty fast.

nyker wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:21 pm Is the degree to which your feet get cold/numb usually the same or is it sometimes better/worse than others? What about your hands, do they get cold also?

Do you have any underlying conditions like peripheral neuropathy, neuromas, diabetes, prediabetes, Raynaud's, etc? Any of those could result in numb/cold toes.

...

Also, do you make it a habit to eat and hydrate sufficiently on these trips? Dehydration can result in being colder all things equal and without enough food beforehand, that thermogenesis you need to stay warm won't occur as readily and you'll feel that in your hands and/or feet. There is also a fine line here, i.e. to eat enough (to keep generating heat) but not too much that it negatively impacts your ability to climb at altitude.

No as mentioned my toes had been cold skiing before but when I took my toes out to check them yesterday they were probably as numb as they had ever been in my whole life, which really freaked me out. All my toes from the tip to the bottom, numb to the bone.
I've never had frostbite before so I don't know what that feels like when it's onset but I didn't want to risk finding out the hard way.
No where else on my body was cold. I even took my gloves off for a good portion of the route.

I also don't believe I have any underlying condition that affects circulation, nor does any in my immediate family. Edit: And I have no reason to believe that I wasn't eating or hydrating enough



It's also worth mentioning that my socks were completely dry, though I did have another pair of the same type that I could have used to swap out if necessary.
I'll definitely try some of the sock things mentioned including the layering up of two thinner socks. I'll also try wearing my laces looser moving forward.

Thanks all again for the comments.


Of course, another thing I could try is wearing my Baffin Fort Macs that I bought for work lol. Rated to -60°C but really meant as safety/work boots. They're bulky as hell, I feel if I took their liners out I could fit my Nepals inside them, but I can fit my microspikes and snow shoes on them just barely!

Squirrellysquirrel wrote: ↑Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:03 am Ever heard of toe warmers by HotHands? These go a long way and are great for early morning and winter hiking. There are versions that stick to the top of the foot or for the whole undersole, never tried the latter, but swear by the former. I place the toe warmer ontop of my toes (rather than underneath) and this gets me through extreme cold days comfortably.

https://hothands.com/products/

Edit: I agree about the right “fit” bit, too... I use two pairs of boots for wintertime hiking, a pair of old school Mammuts, which are for crampon/icy climbs, which are okay at insulation, and my feet can feel colder with such a “restrictive” ankle. My Oboz are made with thinsulate, only around $200, and are amazing at keeping my feet warm... even though the boot offers some ankle support, there’s something about being able to bend my ankle a little bit more that makes a difference. Regardless, for extended wintertime hikes, I usually put toe warmers on at the TH.

Wildernessjane wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:45 pm

CaptCO wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:46 pm

dwoodward13 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:42 pm

Salomon X Ultra Winter with 200g Thinsulate

I've had the X Ultras and they were good in Summer. Might have to try these out, still calling BS

My Salomon Toundras are WAY warmer than my Nepal Evos. These are going for around $150 if you shop around. In a pinch, I’ve also used chemical hand warmers taped to the front side of the shin at the top of the boot (not directly to the skin). I learned this trick from a physician friend who has training in mountain medicine. My personal system is a very thin sock liner and a medium weight sock with boots that are 1/2 size up from my regular size.

Teresa Gergen wrote: ↑Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:22 am Were your toes white and dead-looking when you checked them? Or red/purple? If they were white, it's very likely you have Raynaud's.

...

I always used bulky double-boot Baffin snow boots for CO winter mountaineering, but I've been out of that scene for years now and don't know what new options are out there.

Squirrellysquirrel wrote: ↑Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:03 am Ever heard of toe warmers by HotHands? These go a long way and are great for early morning and winter hiking.

stephakett wrote: ↑Sun Nov 22, 2020 11:34 am agree with both of these- i used to put the warmers on the top and bottom of my toes while skiing, but discovered that the ankle/calf fitment is CRUCIAL for keeping your toes warm. i found my toes were coldest when my boots were super tight and once i loosened them up just a bit, my feet were warmer.

hotrod wrote: ↑Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:42 pm This relates to comments already made. Have you ever frozen your toes so badly that this could be the problem? When I was a kid I did a lot of ice skating, freezing my toes almost every time. As an adult my toes get cold very easily. I was told by a doctor that I had damaged the capillaries and had limited circulation to keep my toes warm. Even in the summer I wear socks to bed. It took lots of trial and error to find a solution, and here's what I came up with (that works for me). I bought some footwear a full size larger than I normally wear and dedicated it to winter outdoor wear only. I wear a synthetic liner sock and a SmartWool expedition weight sock (which fills the space). Besides that, I use a chemical warmer on top of the wool sock right over my toes (not on the liner; it gets too hot). This works 99% of the time, except (Caveat:) if your feet get too warm and sweat, the chemical warmer can get damp and gets unbearably hot. I once had blisters on top of my toes because of this. I am a snowshoe racer and wear a large goretex pair of running shoes and gaiters with this solution. Two of my races were minus 35° and I had no toe problem (just frozen eyeballs!). Just something to consider....

nyker wrote: ↑Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:23 pm I think you made the right call in turning around. Even if your toes would have been fine, if you're attention is elsewhere on a mountain in conditions that have greater consequences of error, that's not good and could have led to you making an otherwise avoidable mistake along the way. Or you might have gotten frostbite, which given the circumstances doesn't seem like a good trade, or if your boots are too tight maybe you would have been rushing to make it down to be off the mountain and in that rush, slipped, fallen, etc... You made the right call. Wait until things are better lined up and try again.

DArcyS wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:32 am In this thread, I see things about liners, but I'm not sure I see anything about vapor barrier liners. They prevent moisture from evaporating around your foot, and we all know the effects of evaporative cooling. I've worn my vapor liners once and found they were way too much for a typical winter day with temps in the high 20's. But what was too warm for me might be right for you. Because no moisture escapes, your feet can begin to swim in all the sweat, so that's an issue that you need to work out. But that may be better than frozen feet.

See https://www.warmlite.com/product/vapor-barrier-socks/

With a little thought, I just stuck my liners in my emergency down parka that I always take with me on my winter hikes.

SnowAlien wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:53 pmNepals are not that warm and an overkill for 14ers. I had a teammate turn around on Orizaba because of frozen toes. Probably too fitted/tight.