Couloir climbing questions

[GeorgiaTyler]

No love for the "mostly cloudy?" Snow generally stays firm, no lobster fry cookout, and no going blind via the deadly dripping sunscreen/foggy glasses epidemic. There are a few traitors among us willing to adopt the weird pacific NW style atrocity of shorts and mountaineering boots/gaiters. I tend to crop those freaks out of my pictures.

Tons of love for cloud cover when i'm out and about... However, for a beginner, in my experience if it is sunny outside and you are exploring new terrain it makes travel a little less stressful..

[Dave B]

There's a climb-versus-ski consideration to be taken here

Ya huh, mostly cloudy days with little/no precip are the bane of spring skiing. People with skills and balls will ski anyways, so that means I have to stay home.

OP - Throw the instructor a $20 or (better) buy him a good beer or something.

Even better is to have a selection of frosty-ice colds waiting in the car, a selection is good since apparently there are some people who don't like hoppy IPAs (who knew?).

Tipping has gotten out of hand on just about everything nowadays, particularly for non tip-based employees.

Ah, this explains the look of consternation when I passed a tip jar around to my committee after passing my qualifying exams.

[bergsteigen]

NEVER leave the shovel at home. If you travel in snow any time of year, beacon, probe, and shovel are a necessity (as well as knowledge of how to use them) so you can rescue a friend in an avalanche as well as many other circumstances that require a shovel. Do not hang out in snow in the mountains without a shovel! EVER! If I forget my beacon, probe, or shovel I go home and come back another day. Avalanche instabilities do not go away after mid May. People do die frequently during this time. ALWAYS bring a shovel and the rest of your avalanche recue gear when traveling on or near snow any time of year. Avalanche hazard is not just good to go after mid-May. Avalanche hazard can become a bit more predictable in the spring if you are paying attention, climb early and get off mountains and couloirs early but never stop thinking about avalanches. The snowpack is never fully consolidated, there are almost always important avalanche considerations, even in the spring.

Exactly.

I do not ski any peak/slope with an individual that does not have training and ALL their gear. It makes me livid to find out otherwise. I'm at the point of buying a second set of gear, in case anyone ever accidentally forgets, or "forgets" a shovel/etc. I am simply not comfortable with the concept of being able to save someone else's tail, when they can't save mine. Sh*t happens, even when you plan for the best possible outcome.

[Mike Shepherd]

I'm not in a position to disagree, however I'll quote the following "Alpine routes are steep and fraught with such hazards as cliff bands and crevasses-the consequences of getting caught in an avalanche are usually tragic. Unlike winter snowshoe and ski touring, in summer live recovery of avalanche victims is rare. This fact combined with the normally excellent stability of summer snow, suggests that winter avalanche safety equipment (beacons, shovels, and probes) is usually not that helpful. More often, the best strategy is to keep your pack light and to be up and down again before the snow softens in the warming day. " from Alpine Climbing: Techniques to Take You Higher by Mark Houston and Kathy Cosley pg 37. The Mountaineers Books.

I don't know what to think when I hear and read so many contradictions. It's like whether or not to use your toes for self arrest or not.

[bergsteigen]

Unlike winter snowshoe and ski touring, in summer live recovery of avalanche victims is rare. This fact combined with the normally excellent stability of summer snow, suggests that winter avalanche safety equipment (beacons, shovels, and probes) is usually not that helpful. More often, the best strategy is to keep your pack light and to be up and down again before the snow softens in the warming day. " from Alpine Climbing: Techniques to Take You Higher by Mark Houston and Kathy Cosley pg 37. The Mountaineers Books.

Here's the difference: spring vs summer.

Summer peak skiing is pretty difficult, as typically the snow is melted out from the summit (and for miles of trail on the approach). Usually what is left in summer is rock hard and icy. Then it's not exactly a question of avalanches, but of being able to safely ski such an icy slope. In spring, skiers wait on the summit until the snow is ripe (corn), then we ski. So in essence, we push the envelope on the snow stability front. Therefore putting us in a higher likelihood of spring wet slide potential, if we haven't read the snow properly (a science in of itself). Climbers don't want to post hole, so they typically start descending before skiers.

Mountaineering is a study of the grey areas, not much is black and white. Bottom line on safety gear, if you don't have it, and something happens, you can do nothing - nothing to help. (other than call for help)

[taylorzs]

Otina (Bergsteigen) makes very good points.
Mike, read your quote closely. It is talking about SUMMER snow, not SPRING snow. This quote (I assume) is speaking in terms of international mountaineering where glacier snow sticks around all year. Once the season's snow melts off and all you have left is the fern snow that stays from year to year, I may not carry avalanche rescue gear either. We are in Colorado though. By the time the avalanche hazard has resolved to this point, most of the snow is gone. We have very little summer snow in this state. If you go up on Rainier in Washington in August avalanche hazard is probably your last concern. That is more of the context I would assume Mike and Kathy are talking about. I will admit to hiking up St. Mary's glacier in late August without an avalanche beacon and was pretty ok with it. That is a big difference from climbing a spring couloir without rescue gear and more importantly the knowledge of knowing when snow is safe and when it is not to travel on. There is still a lot of varied structure in the snowpack in May and June. May and early June tend to have great seasonal snow coverage in Colorado and they also tend to produce many avalanches so carrying that gear is still essential during couloir season. If you want to go hike up St. May's glacier in August without avalanche gear, go for it! But if you are climbing a couloir in May or June, bring rescue gear. I have been climbing and skiing couloirs all across North America for over ten years now. I have taught quite a few avalanche classes. I have climbed in almost every major mountain range in the western US and have seen a lot of different snow conditions. I have turned around because I was worried about avalanches on many occasions during the May/June time period. I have been a member of two different mountain rescue teams in Colorado. I have seen several people die because they left their beacon home and went skiing anyway. Their partners had rescue gear and they did not. Very unfortunate circumstances. Beacon, probe, and shovel is not that heavy. Life is not cheap.
Here is a list of accidents (some fatalities, others of people that survived) in Colorado just since the 2009-2010 season:

http://avalanche.state.co.us/caic/acc/a ... &accfm=inv" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://avalanche.state.co.us/caic/acc/a ... &accfm=inv" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://avalanche.state.co.us/caic/acc/a ... &accfm=rep" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://avalanche.state.co.us/caic/acc/a ... &accfm=inv" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If you want to read accident reports on every avalanche accident that has resulted in fatality in Colorado for the last 20 years or so go here:
http://avalanche.state.co.us/accidents/colorado/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It may be morbid but these reports are great for learning how avalanche accidents happen in Colorado. I do not want to frighten you away from going up couloirs in the spring, just know it is not a free for all. You still need rescue gear and avalanche knowledge!
Be careful, carry your rescue gear, know how to use it, and have fun!

[Mike Shepherd]

OK, those are good points. Now back to my particular delimna. At this point in the season who still offers classes on how to use these things. Also I guess I have to purchase one now as well. Alpine climbing is proving to be an expensive sport to get into.

[taylorzs]

Mountain climbing is annoyingly expensive! At least once you have it, avalanche rescue gear usually lasts for many years. It is late enough in the year that finding a class may be hard. Colorado Mountain School in Estes Park might be offering some though. A Level 1 avalanche class is a good place to start. I would contact them. If not, take a Level 1 avalanche class next year. Most outdoor stores (REI, Wilderness Exchange, Bent Gate, etc) should still be selling the gear too. Ask some questions at your class next weekend about spring avalanche safety. The guides should be good resources. Find some good partners too (easier said than done, I know). Keep an eye out for possible partners in the class you are taking this weekend. Keep in mind, classes give you the framework to learn about avalanches. Experience coupled with classes makes you proficient at avalanche hazard evaluation and avalanche rescue. It can be a fine line between pushing too much in the mountains and progressing your abilities and knowledge but in the end getting out in the mountains is a big part of gaining knowledge, traveling safely, and becoming comfortable with your decision making. Like Otina said mountain climbing is often more grey than black and white. It has intrinsic hazards that we mediate with knowledge and experience.

[Mike Shepherd]

Well I just purchased a beacon and probe. I already have a shovel. Overtime here I come. Sigh. Oh well it should be worth it.

In the event I don't have a class what should I do wait the whole season out? I've suppose I could practice locating other beacons, etc until this next winter.

[I Man]

I think you're grossly overestimating what moderate spring coolies in Colorado entail. Alpine climbing is a different thing.

Crampons, an ice axe and a few competent friends is all you need for a route 40 degrees or below. Start on something like the Angel of Shavano, which can even be done without crampons and has a mostly safe runout. Just my 2 cents...

[I Man]

I think you're grossly overestimating what moderate spring coolies in Colorado entail. Alpine climbing is a different thing.

Crampons, an ice axe and a few competent friends is all you need for a route 40 degrees or below. Start on something like the Angel of Shavano, which can even be done without crampons and has a mostly safe runout. Just my 2 cents...

FYI - I think 250A is driveable to the TH. There are snow patches that could be tricky but with the recent warm weather it probably is doable.n Bring a shovel.

It wasn't on Sunday, had to park over 2 miles below the TH. Perfect conditions on the Angel though.

[bergsteigen]

In the event I don't have a class what should I do wait the whole season out? I've suppose I could practice locating other beacons, etc until this next winter.

The best thing you can do now, is go out with experienced people. Going solo is very intimidating at first. There is simply too much to learn and know. You can follow basic rules, but there are always exceptions. Always exceptions. Hence why I carry Avy gear this time of year, it's still transitioning from winter to spring.

There is likely to be a thread thrown up, looking for partners for the Angel of Shavano (an easy first snow climb) or something similar. I know it's later, but there is a spring gathering May 31-June 1 where it is likely you can find a group to go with. You can also put up your own thread looking for beginning snow climb partners.