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jscully wrote:I dont think I have it wrong on the revs. If youre geared too high it bogs your engine down and you use more gas. That is why auto trannys downshift. You may experience this going up I-70 or anything like it. If youre geared lower your engine revs will be higher for the given gear and thus less downshifting saving you gas.

You're drownshifting uphill not to save gas, but to get back into the meat of the engine's torque curve, or to its lower end so you can maintain or build as you accelerate. Likewise, downshifting downhill wastes gas but saves brakes. Tradeoffs. Fuel efficiency always favors the tallest-geared lowest-revving pairing that has sufficient torque for the given task, counter to "responsiveness." Performance:efficiancy, an inverse love story.

So tying back to the OP's Q, it may be worth comparing the breadth of torque curves and the width of gearing with a low Lo for the rough. high top gear for highway, and a healthy curve overlapping the gears in between. Upsizing tires shifts that, and factory settings can be biased either way.

My personal 2 cents to this discussion is to own a cheap/fuel efficient 2wd vehicle and walk the extra distance to peaks. I have climbed more US peaks than all but the top 5-10% of this community, all with transportation to trailheads in a Honda Civic. I frequently log 20,000 miles of hiking-related driving a year so the ~$0.25 savings per mile is about 5 grand extra in my pocket. Sometimes I have to walk an extra couple hours each way to the 4wd parking lot, but I save countless hours of work that would be required for the extra gas and car costs. I prefer more time in the mountains rather than more time working to pay for the time in the mountains.

Having said this, my son still gives me a dirty stare every time that we are walking along a rough dirt road because a couple boulders stopped my car from going any further. He gives a big smile to passing 4x4s and we often get offered a ride. Probably a majority of drivers would stop to offer a ride to anyone with a "Iraq Veteran" hat. My son wishes that I would buy a Taco; I had fond memories of driving a Cherokee when I was learning to drive in the late 80's.

spiderman wrote:Sometimes I have to walk an extra couple hours each way to the 4wd parking lot, but I save countless hours of work that would be required for the extra gas and car costs.

Time = money. I'd rather pay a little more and avoid the long approaches down forest service roads...

spiderman wrote:My personal 2 cents to this discussion is to own a cheap/fuel efficient 2wd vehicle and walk the extra distance to peaks. I have climbed more US peaks than all but the top 5-10% of this community, all with transportation to trailheads in a Honda Civic. I frequently log 20,000 miles of hiking-related driving a year so the ~$0.25 savings per mile is about 5 grand extra in my pocket. Sometimes I have to walk an extra couple hours each way to the 4wd parking lot, but I save countless hours of work that would be required for the extra gas and car costs. I prefer more time in the mountains rather than more time working to pay for the time in the mountains.

Having said this, my son still gives me a dirty stare every time that we are walking along a rough dirt road because a couple boulders stopped my car from going any further. He gives a big smile to passing 4x4s and we often get offered a ride. Probably a majority of drivers would stop to offer a ride to anyone with a "Iraq Veteran" hat. My son wishes that I would buy a Taco; I had fond memories of driving a Cherokee when I was learning to drive in the late 80's.

Props to you. I respect what you've said here. I do think it's possible, though, and maybe wise, to split the difference. There are many quality 2WD vehicles out there that have a little more clearance than something like a Civic or Corolla, and they'll also get good gas mileage. I only get to visit the mountains once a year, so maybe I'm just not as comfortable at navigating some of these roads, but there's no way I'd want to drive a Civic to, say, the Grays Peak trailhead or even many of the Sawatch trailheads. These are technically 2WD roads, and I know people drive passenger cars down them all the time-- but I'd at least recommend having a vehicle (maybe a CRV or a Highlander or something like that) with decent ground clearance if you're going to enjoy this pastime on a regular basis.

Having said that, I drive a 2WD Toyota Tundra, so I have neither great gas mileage nor 4WD.... However, it's gotten me up all but the absolute worst roads. I think clearance is frequently more important than 4WD, unless it's rained recently and the road is a muddy mess.

oldschoolczar wrote:

spiderman wrote:Sometimes I have to walk an extra couple hours each way to the 4wd parking lot, but I save countless hours of work that would be required for the extra gas and car costs.

Time = money. I'd rather pay a little more and avoid the long approaches down forest service roads...

Agreed.

SensoZakku wrote:Not much of a car guy, but I have a Nissan Xterra that I've been plenty happy with.

Seems to strike a decent balance between economy, comfort, and capability.

Has a decent clearance and fairly short wheelbase which seems to handle the majority of issues.

Ditto. And I'll add that I'm 6'1" and can sleep in the back fully stretched out.

spiderman wrote:My personal 2 cents to this discussion is to own a cheap/fuel efficient 2wd vehicle and walk the extra distance to peaks. I have climbed more US peaks than all but the top 5-10% of this community, all with transportation to trailheads in a Honda Civic. I frequently log 20,000 miles of hiking-related driving a year so the ~$0.25 savings per mile is about 5 grand extra in my pocket. Sometimes I have to walk an extra couple hours each way to the 4wd parking lot, but I save countless hours of work that would be required for the extra gas and car costs. I prefer more time in the mountains rather than more time working to pay for the time in the mountains.

Your math is off by a little bit.

A Honda Civic that averages 33 MPG (I'm being generous) costs about $0.06512/mile with current gas prices (using $2.15/gallon; it's currently cheaper) . If you drive 20,000 miles you are paying $1,303 for gas.
A Nissan Xterra that averages 19 MPG costs about $0.11316/mile or $2263.16 per year.

Less than $1,000. Still significant; yes. Xterra also uses more expensive tires, although the difference in price isn't as much as you'd think (I paid $600 for car tires, $740 for truck tires recently).

The real game changer is winter excursions. An Xterra would potentially allow you to have better access during winter, when the days are shorter and temps are way down. I'd think for winter having a 4WD vehicle would be a big advantage. Also being able to sleep comfortably in the back is quite useful.

Moreover, having KIDS my time away needs to be limited so I can optimize my time with family.

djkest wrote: The real game changer is winter excursions. An Xterra would potentially allow you to have better access during winter, when the days are shorter and temps are way down. I'd think for winter having a 4WD vehicle would be a big advantage. Also being able to sleep comfortably in the back is quite useful.

Moreover, having KIDS my time away needs to be limited so I can optimize my time with family.

In wintertime the only thing that's gonna get you significantly closer to unmaintained trailheads is a snowmobile. 4WDs get stuck easily on unplowed roads, I know this from personal experience, very unfortunate and close to an "I shouldn't be alive" episode experience.

I drive a 2016 Renegade TH and it goes everywhere that I need it to go in the mountains and it's the bomb in the city. It definitely feels a bit under powered in serious off-road situations but it always goes. I have yet to see anything in the mountains that I can't get through.

djkest wrote: Your math is off by a little bit.

I won't argue that an Xterra has many advantages and I do enjoy having friends who have one for winter trips. It probably is more dangerous to have a 4wd vehicle, though, since it gives people a false sense of confidence. I see Subarus passing me on the highway, and then see them spun out into a ditch. It is like having avalanche air bags that could save your life, but also might convince you to take extra risks into terrain that you might want to avoid (opening a new can of worms). I sleep just fine in the back of my Civic, but I am slightly vertically challenged (5'10 in my dreams).

My economics math, however, is very accurate. I get 40 mpg on my road trips, you ignored the higher purchase price of the Xterra, and maintenance is significantly cheaper for a Civic. Throw in insurance, expected increase of gas back towards $4/gal, and other miscellaneous costs and I stand by my $0.25/mile price differential of a compact sedan vs good 4wd vehicle. There is a reason for the IRS estimate of $0.54/mile for average vehicles since the little stuff adds up. Transportation is one of the biggest items on my peakbagging trips (unguided, cook my own food, rarely stay in a motel, already own most of the necessary gear) so I do greatly appreciate the $3-5k of annual savings with a 2wd vehicle. This is admittedly a balance of cost vs comfort, swag, and time so the optimal solution for myself is not universal. I drag my son with me so every extra mile of hiking is extra "character building" opportunity!

spiderman wrote: It probably is more dangerous to have a 4wd vehicle, though, since it gives people a false sense of confidence. I see Subarus passing me on the highway, and then see them spun out into a ditch.

Bad drivers are bad drivers. Ultimately you are responsible for how you drive. I feel more safe driving my 4x4 truck in the winter than I do my FWD car. I've never crashed or spun out in my truck, but I've put 1 FWD car into a ditch; mostly due to bad tires.

You're happy with your civic though, and that's all that matters. I'm a bit suspicious that you average 40mpg, but I'll take your word for it.

spiderman wrote: I drag my son with me so every extra mile of hiking is extra "character building" opportunity!

I've done more than my share of just walking down busted up roads, I'd rather avoid more of it it if I can. Plus, as it stands now, I'm much more constrained by amount of vacation time available for trips than I am by money available for trips. Again, not that I'm just going to be throwing money around all willy-nilly, just that doubling gas mileage for 1-2 trips per year isn't going to kill me unless whatever I buy is getting 20 mpg or less.

Also, I may not have mentioned this before, but my gf (shared living arrangement, so I have full access to her car, and vice-versa) drives a hybrid, so anything that we need fuel efficiency for, we've got it. I'm looking for a second vehicle with an increased interior cargo capacity and 4wd, accepting that there will be a pretty sharp drop-off in mpg.