How many finishers...really?

[Trotter]

HYOH? Sure. Hike your own hike, enjoy the mountain however you want. But you don't get to make your own reality or lie about it because you don't like facts. If you didn't go to the actual top you didn't summit. If you didn't do Culebra you didn't finish the 14ers.

+1

However, we live in the "post truth" world. So its less about summiting the 14ers, and more about feeeeeling like you did.

[bdloftin77]

HYOH? Sure. Hike your own hike, enjoy the mountain however you want. But you don't get to make your own reality or lie about it because you don't like facts. If you didn't go to the actual top you didn't summit. If you didn't do Culebra you didn't finish the 14ers.

However, we live in the "post truth" world. So its less about summiting the 14ers, and more about feeeeeling like you did.

+1

[JROSKA]

This thread is about statistics though. From a statistical and numbers standpoint (no names ever have to be mentioned), the quantity of finishers should only include the ones who have summited Sunlight. This is about math and statics, not HYOH. On your own personal list, it's up to you what to count and what not to.

So this statement (or excerpt) kind of highlights an “interesting” inconsistency within this forum. Seems like many people want to get all technical, “numbersey” or “statistic-ey”, rules are rules, etc when it comes to Sunlight. Fine. But if we are going to get that rigid, mathematical, and rules oriented with this particular topic then El Diente is not a 14er and doesn’t belong on the 14er list, period. It has never fulfilled the mathematical requirement (rise from ridge) to be a 14er and never will. Let’s be consistent then if we are going to be all about mathematical rules.

It just seems like we’ve got a bunch of people in this forum that want to institute rigid and non-negotiable rules about a Sunlight summit but when it comes to El D it’s “oh, I like it”. Or, “it’s a named peak”. Or, “it adds personality to the checklist”. Better still, “it’s one of the most challenging”. Rule based with Sunlight but emotion based with El D. It’s one or the other. Can’t have it both ways. If we are going to get uptight and rigid about rules and numbers and require a full acquisition of Sunlight’s summit block, then El Diente is out as a requirement. If we want to be more liberal about including El D on the list, then the requirement at Sunlight should be more flexible as well. Again, can’t apply one standard to one situation and not the other. Either be about statistics and rules or don’t. We can’t apply statistics and rules to one situation and then switch to emotion and nostalgia on another. That’s not consistent at all.

For anyone who disagrees with this, I’d be curious about the reasoning. As to, why do you want to be strict and rigid about Sunlight but completely ignore the same strict and rigid rules about El Diente. Seems like many here just want to hunt for methods and cherry pick rules to make the 14er checklist as difficult as possible, and exclude as many people as they can from the “club”.

[Ed_Groves]

This thread is about statistics though. From a statistical and numbers standpoint (no names ever have to be mentioned), the quantity of finishers should only include the ones who have summited Sunlight. This is about math and statics, not HYOH. On your own personal list, it's up to you what to count and what not to.

So this statement (or excerpt) kind of highlights an “interesting” inconsistency within this forum. Seems like many people want to get all technical, “numbersey” or “statistic-ey”, rules are rules, etc when it comes to Sunlight. Fine. But if we are going to get that rigid, mathematical, and rules oriented with this particular topic then El Diente is not a 14er and doesn’t belong on the 14er list, period. It has never fulfilled the mathematical requirement (rise from ridge) to be a 14er and never will. Let’s be consistent then if we are going to be all about mathematical rules.

It just seems like we’ve got a bunch of people in this forum that want to institute rigid and non-negotiable rules about a Sunlight summit but when it comes to El D it’s “oh, I like it”. Or, “it’s a named peak”. Or, “it adds personality to the checklist”. Better still, “it’s one of the most challenging”. Rule based with Sunlight but emotion based with El D. It’s one or the other. Can’t have it both ways. If we are going to get uptight and rigid about rules and numbers and require a full acquisition of Sunlight’s summit block, then El Diente is out as a requirement. If we want to be more liberal about including El D on the list, then the requirement at Sunlight should be more flexible as well. Again, can’t apply one standard to one situation and not the other. Either be about statistics and rules or don’t. We can’t apply statistics and rules to one situation and then switch to emotion and nostalgia on another. That’s not consistent at all.

For anyone who disagrees with this, I’d be curious about the reasoning. As to, why do you want to be strict and rigid about Sunlight but completely ignore the same strict and rigid rules about El Diente. Seems like many here just want to hunt for methods and cherry pick rules to make the 14er checklist as difficult as possible, and exclude as many people as they can from the “club”.

I respect both you and Scott's opinions but I disagree with both of you, although I do think Scott may have meant what I am about to say. The issue is ultimately about the truth. I have only completed 33 of the 58. I fully intend to climb the summit block of Sunlight but if I fail to do so then I will not count myself as a finisher if, or when, I complete the 58. Why? Because I don't get to change the definition of the word, "summit," to call myself a finisher when I didn't reach the apex of one of the peaks. I will not lie to make myself a finisher.

Comparing the inclusion of El Diente in the 58 to completing the summit block of Sunlight is an "apples to oranges" comparison. If I say I am a finisher when I didn't complete the Sunlight summit block I am misleading people. There is no lying going on with El Diente. Everyone who climbs the 58 knows it and four other summits do not meet the standards of the other 53 peaks. Click on the Peaks menu on this site and the list has asterisks by these 5 peaks and they do not receive a number (i.e. 58 peaks listed, but only 53 receive a number while the other 5 have asterisks). The majority of the community has agreed to include these peaks in a group they call the 58, but no one claims the 5 peaks noted meet the 300 foot rule so the truth isn't in question here.

As for how many finishers there are, no matter how much we try to come up with a method to hone in on this number we will never know the answer to this question.

[Veory]

]

El Diente is not a 14er and doesn’t belong on the 14er list, period. It has never fulfilled the mathematical requirement (rise from ridge) to be a 14er and never will. Let’s be consistent then if we are going to be all about mathematical rules.

Just wait for another rock slide at the saddle, the way the rock is it's bound to happen eventually

El Diente doesn't count because it's not ranked. I feel like it might be a little silly to finish the list without doing it but I agree, rules are rules. It's good to define a hard and fast set of rules in my option and 300' prominence is one of them.

However there are plenty of lists that include peaks for historical reasons, so I do think those who think it should be required have a point. Think of the Bulgers or including Helens in the CONUS Ultras or something. It keeps the requirement consistent over time, since every finisher up the point it lost its ranked status finished it too

[gb]

So this statement (or excerpt) kind of highlights an “interesting” inconsistency within this forum. Seems like many people want to get all technical, “numbersey” or “statistic-ey”, rules are rules, etc when it comes to Sunlight. Fine. But if we are going to get that rigid, mathematical, and rules oriented with this particular topic then El Diente is not a 14er and doesn’t belong on the 14er list, period. It has never fulfilled the mathematical requirement (rise from ridge) to be a 14er and never will. Let’s be consistent then if we are going to be all about mathematical rules.

Because El Diente is one of the 54 14ers. Has been forever. The CMC includes it on their list. If you haven't climbed El Diente, you haven't climbed the 14ers. Period.

[rijaca]

....For anyone who disagrees with this, I’d be curious about the reasoning. As to, why do you want to be strict and rigid about Sunlight but completely ignore the same strict and rigid rules about El Diente.

We're talking different criteria. Reaching the summit is the same for El Diente, Sunlight, and all the other peaks in Colorado. You either make the top or you don't. There is no ambiguity. Even the "pros" you refer to state this... "scramble north up to an alcove just south of Sunlight's famous 30-foot-high summit block. Many souls have elected to stop here, but this is not the summit."

El Diente has been on the 14er list for at least 75 years or more. No peak has been removed from the List unless resurveyed and found to be less than 14k. The list includes all 52 named peaks over 14,000 feet with more than 300 feet of prominence, plus North Maroon Peak and El Diente Peak for their history and aesthetics. The CMC does not currently include Challenger Point, which is historically considered a subsummit of Kit Carson Peak.

Historical precedence has always been part of mountaineering. If you haven't climbed El Diente and Sunlight, you haven't climbed all the 14ers.

[greenonion]

This thread is about statistics though. From a statistical and numbers standpoint (no names ever have to be mentioned), the quantity of finishers should only include the ones who have summited Sunlight. This is about math and statics, not HYOH. On your own personal list, it's up to you what to count and what not to.

So this statement (or excerpt) kind of highlights an “interesting” inconsistency within this forum. Seems like many people want to get all technical, “numbersey” or “statistic-ey”, rules are rules, etc when it comes to Sunlight. Fine. But if we are going to get that rigid, mathematical, and rules oriented with this particular topic then El Diente is not a 14er and doesn’t belong on the 14er list, period. It has never fulfilled the mathematical requirement (rise from ridge) to be a 14er and never will. Let’s be consistent then if we are going to be all about mathematical rules.

It just seems like we’ve got a bunch of people in this forum that want to institute rigid and non-negotiable rules about a Sunlight summit but when it comes to El D it’s “oh, I like it”. Or, “it’s a named peak”. Or, “it adds personality to the checklist”. Better still, “it’s one of the most challenging”. Rule based with Sunlight but emotion based with El D. It’s one or the other. Can’t have it both ways. If we are going to get uptight and rigid about rules and numbers and require a full acquisition of Sunlight’s summit block, then El Diente is out as a requirement. If we want to be more liberal about including El D on the list, then the requirement at Sunlight should be more flexible as well. Again, can’t apply one standard to one situation and not the other. Either be about statistics and rules or don’t. We can’t apply statistics and rules to one situation and then switch to emotion and nostalgia on another. That’s not consistent at all.

For anyone who disagrees with this, I’d be curious about the reasoning. As to, why do you want to be strict and rigid about Sunlight but completely ignore the same strict and rigid rules about El Diente. Seems like many here just want to hunt for methods and cherry pick rules to make the 14er checklist as difficult as possible, and exclude as many people as they can from the “club”.

I respect both you and Scott's opinions but I disagree with both of you, although I do think Scott may have meant what I am about to say. The issue is ultimately about the truth. I have only completed 33 of the 58. I fully intend to climb the summit block of Sunlight but if I fail to do so then I will not count myself as a finisher if, or when, I complete the 58. Why? Because I don't get to change the definition of the word, "summit," to call myself a finisher when I didn't reach the apex of one of the peaks. I will not lie to make myself a finisher.

Comparing the inclusion of El Diente in the 58 to completing the summit block of Sunlight is an "apples to oranges" comparison. If I say I am a finisher when I didn't complete the Sunlight summit block I am misleading people. There is no lying going on with El Diente. Everyone who climbs the 58 knows it and four other summits do not meet the standards of the other 53 peaks. Click on the Peaks menu on this site and the list has asterisks by these 5 peaks and they do not receive a number (i.e. 58 peaks listed, but only 53 receive a number while the other 5 have asterisks). The majority of the community has agreed to include these peaks in a group they call the 58, but no one claims the 5 peaks noted meet the 300 foot rule so the truth isn't in question here.

As for how many finishers there are, no matter how much we try to come up with a method to hone in on this number we will never know the answer to this question.

I agree with Ed_Groves and rijaca. Sorry Jeff. Appears to be an apples and oranges comparison by saying El D shouldn’t be included because of the shorter saddle, while Sunlight shouldn’t be included because the top wasn’t stood on or even the top touched by hand. I may be missing a nuance, but the comparison doesn’t make sense to me

[Boggy B]

Just say what you do and do what you say.

Thankfully now that lidar has shown N Maroon to be ranked and Challenger unranked, if you've only climbed the CMC list you can still say you finished the 14ers, and the distinction between the 53 and 54 is more pedantic than ever. El Diente is one of my favorites, but just like "the 13ers" means the ranked 13ers, "the 14ers" should just mean the ranked 53. However, if you find the effort spent defending not climbing the named 14ers approaches the effort involved in just walking over there, you should probably climb them, too.

If you were to apply historical precedent to the 13ers, then you'd have to climb a lot of unranked 5th class peaks to complete the list, because the people who originally cared about mountain climbing were mountaineers rather than peakbaggers. As Lavender (O.G. CMC hardman) wrote of a number of easy ranked summits: "This peak is of no importance whatsoever"

[JROSKA]

Oh well. If others want to be inconsistent with the application of rules that’s fine by me. I subscribe to not being so strict about everything. This is recreation / leisure time in Colorado. Not competition in the Himalayas. So I will continue to view the list as 58 with the 5 asterisks and “breaking the plane” of the summit block at Sunlight (ie standing against it / reaching up to touch it) counts. Just like a touchdown in the NFL. If you “break the plane” of the summit, you scored. Personally it’s not a big deal to me since I’ll climb both anyways including the Sunlight block as I’m 6’ tall. I’m just saying we should be more eager to be encouraging and accept some loose criteria for those who finish (just like applying loose criteria to have El Diente count as a 14er) as opposed to being strict and rigid about everything. Again this is a hobby for most people. Not some type of competition to be strictly regulated.

I also find it humorous when someone says “You must stand on the final summit block of Sunlight for it to count, but I wouldn’t hold it against someone for not doing that”. Of course you would. Otherwise you wouldn’t be bringing it up. In a hypothetical situation where we meet a person at a bar who says they climbed all of the 14ers we’ve got a bunch of folks in here that would poke and prod about whether all technicalities were followed as opposed to just saying “congratulations, nice job”. Kind of sad.

[Bill G]

What ever happened to HYOH? Anyone who claims they hiked one or all 14ers should be given their due. There is no arbitrary tribunal that gets to decide otherwise.

I stand corrected. My apologies to those I offended. HYOH is not permitted when it comes to 14ers. There is an arbitrary (although secret) tribunal who gets to decide. I propose that we eliminate allowing posters to add to their peaks list. You are now required to submit a 10 page questionnaire for review. Of course, being this is for Colorado, you must gain 3000 ft or you have to go back and do it again. (Some of you opined that it is silly. Dammit, it's a RULE). Now, where to you stand on poaching Lindsey, Bross and Culebra? Can you get a ride down from Evans (oops, Blue Sky) or Pikes Peak?

This is serious stuff folks. I don't ever want to hear you climb 14ers for fun. Glad I never submitted my peaks.

Now where do you stand on eliminating the 40% who never stood on the top of Sunlight?

[JROSKA]

What ever happened to HYOH? Anyone who claims they hiked one or all 14ers should be given their due. There is no arbitrary tribunal that gets to decide otherwise.

I stand corrected. My apologies to those I offended. HYOH is not permitted when it comes to 14ers. There is an arbitrary (although secret) tribunal who gets to decide. I propose that we eliminate allowing posters to add to their peaks list. You are now required to submit a 10 page questionnaire for review. Of course, being this is for Colorado, you must gain 3000 ft or you have to go back and do it again. (Some of you opined that it is silly. Dammit, it's a RULE). Now, where to you stand on poaching Lindsey, Bross and Culebra? Can you get a ride down from Evans (oops, Blue Sky) or Pikes Peak?

This is serious stuff folks. I don't ever want to hear you climb 14ers for fun. Glad I never submitted my peaks.

Now where do you stand on eliminating the 40% who never stood on the top of Sunlight?