Testing Rocks while Climbing

[pvnisher]

Justiner- you're worried about bad juju, like the type that occurs when someone makes fun of someone needing rescue, and then subsequently needs rescue, and gets it thrown into their face.
Don't worry about that, nothing you've said is casting aspersions at anyone. I think we all understand that climbing can be dangerous, and even when an expert, shiz happens. You're posting sound advice.

[justiner]

Justiner- you're worried about bad juju, like the type that occurs when someone makes fun of someone needing rescue, and then subsequently needs rescue, and gets it thrown into their face.

Yes, that and just the irony of getting myself into a rescue situation after blathering that "oh I'm an expert, let me tell you about all the things people should do". But I will say there are orgs that do good work that you should turn to. I think I was preeetty lucky when I was younger, unseasoned (and dangerous) but I also started climbing when I was 12 and it's amazing how well your body holds onto body movement patterns/skills/whatnot even from way back when.

Unsolicited online mentoring is not as good as finding someone to show you exactly what's up. And you don't need much - right? That free, one hour avy clinic at REI Denver I sat in on a decade ago wised me up that snow is dangerous in the Winter, and I really shouldn't risk it on stupid situations. That hammered itself into my head, which I do think has helped my stats on not getting buried, despite not knowing really very much else.

[painless4u2]

Sometimes it seems difficult or impossible to "test" rock before committing. This would also include the trip down off the summit. I'm reminded of Sean Wylam coming off Snowmass and tragically stepping on the wrong rock. How would you know beforehand? Mountain rock, especially in the Elks, is in constant motion, made worse after rain or freeze-thaw cycles. You may not know that rock is unstable until you actually commit, which could end terribly wrong.

[colin j]

Excellent points have been brought up and I'll expand on one or two of them. The TLDR is that to get good at moving in loose terrain one must get experience and to get experience one must put themselves into loose terrain.

Moving efficiently is especially important in scrambling and rock climbing. What I interpret this as is that you need to be able to make quick decisions and to move with precision. In the alpine I haven't pushed into 5.easy scrambling yet but I've gotten solid mileage in class 4 terrain since last summer. When scrambling in this sort of terrain as I've gotten more experience I've found myself looking at tough sections as I approach and planning the sequence of moves necessary to get to the next ledge, grass, etc. This involves looking at the angle of the rocks, the potential holds, areas with fractures, lichen, etc. to plan where I will go, and then I will shift my weight, move my hands into a balanced position, and place my feet exactly where I want them the first time. The ability to just look at a hold and realize it's junk, or know how it might pull out so you can balance yourself accordingly is an important part of moving efficiently in this type of terrain. If you've ever been rock climbing on a difficult route and you find yourself in a spot where you shift your feet several times to find the exact positioning you need, this is really inefficient and will sooner or later come back to bite you in the alpine. Further, moving efficiently and quickly are not the same thing, but are highly correlated; the better you are at reading the terrain and route and the more precise your movement is you will naturally move faster. Ultimately terrain like this is really a game of probability; if there is a 1 in 100 chance that in a given hour a hold will break loose or a rock will fall off a cliff then we should minimize the number of hours we spend in that terrain; either by never entering it in the first place or moving through it in the least amount of time possible.

I also think that detailed route descriptions and trip reports have been a real blessing and curse in this department. On the one hand, we have opened up access and the ability to experience the mountains to the masses like never before. On the other hand, we have really handicapped people in a way that they don't really gain the experience needed to be self sufficient in the mountains. I suspect that most who "have had done the 14ers" have no idea how to think about if a rock falls off a mountain the path it will travel down, how to read terrain and understand why a route or trail goes one way rather than another, or how to think critically about the pros and cons of different route choices, both on the micro level and macro level. I find myself gravitating towards guidebooks and printing out paper maps with my own notes for my outings in the mountains as a result.

[nyker]

Moving efficiently is especially important in scrambling and rock climbing. What I interpret this as is that you need to be able to make quick decisions and to move with precision. .......

Further, moving efficiently and quickly are not the same thing, but are highly correlated; ...

One thing I'll add to these points especially in places like Colorado and particularly for folks coming from sea level or much lower elevations or not used to the altitude, is that all things equal, proper acclimatization is vital and without it all the above becomes that much harder, making accidents more likely.
You might have 500 summits under your belt and be comfortable at low class 5 rock but it might not work out for you one day if you're not on your A game.

Up until the pandemic I traveled a lot and was at altitude (above 8,000ft), hiking or climbing every month or two all year and with that frequency, I was able to fly in and hike the next day sometimes do a 14er the next morning after coming in from sea level and felt good doing it. Due to several issues related to the shutdown it took three years to travel again to anything above sea-level. I just recently came back and will say that without benefitting from the prior recency effect of being at higher elevations more frequently, it took a while (4 days) to feel normal even in the gym at Denver elevations, then was huffing and puffing above 12k despite being in what I'd call good shape. During my initial warm up hikes, and even driving above 12k, I was feeling a little nauseous and lightheaded, and really utilized pressure breathing - something I hadn't felt since the first time I was ever above 8,000ft some 20yrs ago. Since I hadn't been out at elevation for a long time, I purposely wasn't doing anything technical on these first hikes, but had I was, I definitely was not on my A game and would need a little more time to feel as sharp again. Towards the end of the week I did feel I was "getting my mountain legs" back but suspect it will take another trip out and up high to get feeling better faster. For those not used to the altitude, you may want to ease into it before doing a more technical route, making sure you feel 100% on an easy Class 1/2 route before doing something with higher consequence decisions.

[justiner]

Sometimes it seems difficult or impossible to "test" rock before committing.

There is no way to 100% guarantee that the mountain will not fall down around you, just like you do not know if the snow slope you're on will give way in an avalanche. There are ways to mitigate the risk - one of them is to avoid travel on loose terrain and prefer more solid terrain that may be more technically difficult (but guess what? There's tools/systems for technical terrain). If you do decide to travel on loose terrain, you can try to look for obvious sketchy rock characteristics and avoid the worst of it, then carefully navigate the rest. Practicing in lower stakes scenarios with a mentor/guide/expert can help.

[benihana320]

Hi all,

New Rockies hiker here, with most of my experience in the Smokies. Just want to make sure I understand the advice above, and how it applies to smaller, looser types rocks and holds.

As an example, descending Sherman / La Plata via the trail is steep and fairly gravelly / loose. It's much easier to go down on the larger (microwave sized and larger) rocks as long as you're carefully testing each rock before putting your full weight on it. These rocks are much looser than a solid formation like the knife edge, but are still held in place by their friction against each other and the ground. I would imagine that if you were really unlucky, putting enough force onto the wrong rock at the wrong place could cause a rock-valanche. And with this in mind, maybe it's better to stick to the pea gravel / dirt and make your peace with having to struggle with the grade.

In addition, when speaking to someone doing trail maintenance, he noted that when trail running, his go / no go for using rocks as stops is >50% submersion of a given rock into the ground. If it doesn't meet that standard, it's not good enough for weight at speed.

Thoughts?

[Jorts]

descending Sherman / La Plata

Huh? Where is that?

Just tread lightly when you're on a choss pile. Stay on route, the more traffic an area sees the less sketchy scraps there are to shake loose. If you're traveling on scree that sees a fair bit of traffic, chances are it's already at the angle of repose so any motion you stir will not go far.

The areas I find to be most dangerous are seldom used routes or being off route with exposure where it isn't necessarily loose choss so much as just a "dirty" 4th/low 5th climbing route.

And yeah, downhill running is an art form. Aim for the well anchored stones but with strong ankles and technique you can absorb a lot in the way of loose rocks that shift on you.

[Jorts]

...I was trying to move efficiently and smoothly (what I strive for in my climbing).

Curious as to what exactly is in your mind when you say "move efficiently"? To me that brings to mind (especially together with your car analogy) moving quickly.

Slow is smooth. Smooth is efficient. Efficient is economical. Economical is fast. So slow is fast?

bulls**t anecdotes aside, if you’ve ever been on a ridge with tricky route finding. You might be trying to push the pace but you aren’t necessarily moving fast because you’re wasting movement and energy on route finding. If you do the route again and again, you can easily move faster without trying to push the pace just because of that familiarity.

This translates to mountaineering in general. Haste makes waste. If you get caught up in trying to go fast, you can end up with tunnel vision (e.g. I’m going to stay ridge proper and hammer this. Oh crap, this gendarme I just scrambled up ends in a cliff, now I have to double back. If I had just taken a moment to notice the obvious bypass I could have avoided the wasted energy and time…)

[DArcyS]

This translates to mountaineering in general. Haste makes waste. If you get caught up in trying to go fast, you can end up with tunnel vision (e.g. I’m going to stay ridge proper and hammer this. Oh crap, this gendarme I just scrambled up ends in a cliff, now I have to double back. If I had just taken a moment to notice the obvious bypass I could have avoided the wasted energy and time…)

I'm glad somebody with greater climbing credentials than I made this point, as I literally had the same thought about "haste makes waster." You move too fast without surveying your route, and you can easily end up in serious trouble.

[climbingcue]

The areas I find to be most dangerous are seldom used routes or being off route with exposure where it isn't necessarily loose choss so much as just a "dirty" 4th/low 5th climbing route.

Perfect description of Peak Fifteen.

[andrewhamilton]

If you spend a lot of time in the mountains no matter what you do you will knock down loose rocks, or jump out of the way of loose rocks. Sometimes you will avoid injury or worse just by pure luck. So bad things can happen to literally anyone on any terrain. We all know that…

Anyway here are a few things i go with:
1) on a terrible route on the west side of middle palisade in California, called the Farquhar Death Chute, a horrendously dangerous route, i realized that many rocks appeared to be part of the mountain - you could tell just by looking that they werent going to move (with exceptions of course!). Some rocks were clearly just laying on the mountain. And some were not obvious. So when in doubt go for the ones that are part the mountain, not the ones laying on the mountain if you have a choice.

2) there has been talk off pulling down not out, However I’ll often be able to turn a loose handhold/Boulder into a great handhold by pushing it down into the mountain, not pulling it at all.

3). When i was a kid, my step dad taught me to run through rock fields by assuming everything you touch was loose, but by the time you step on a rock you need to be on your way to the next one so you plan two to three steps ahead.

4) then there is also the basic 3 point of contact rule. That is when scrambling in threatening terrain just move one foot or hand at a time so if a hold gives way you still have 3 points of contact to the mountain. This is absolutely critical when in exposed terrain.

5) you should consciously/unconsciously be aware when you are in life threatening terrain and be extra aware of every move you take. Because in some places stepping on a rock and slipping doesn’t kill you and in other places it will.

6) watch out when things are wet!