Risk Factors

[Rock-a-Fella]

I launched this thread to take some seeking guidance off the thread discussing the recent tragic loss of life on Capitol Peak.

This is not a “connect the dots” or “color in between the lines” sport. You need to put in the work. You should be able to approach your climbing route(s) the way you would approach your driving route(s) So first let’s discuss risk tolerance. Here is Manuel Genswein discussing the topic. The numbers may be slightly different for non snow mountaineering but the principles are the same. For the purpose of this thread “ski”= “climb” and “descent” = “ascent”, “tour” = “route” “ski tourer” = “mountaineer”

[media] [/media]


“Remembering those who have passed will do more to heighten your own awareness of potential dangers than would a critque of their errors. Remember: you've already taken courses, participated with good mentors, and read valuable books. You know what mistakes can be made. You know that you can make zero mistakes and still die. Vigilance is the best defense and bringing along the memory of those lost partners will always heighten vigilance. Sadly, none of us are 100% vigilant”

Steve Gladbach

Hopefully this will help some of you understand what sport you have signed up for and the statistical risks involved.

[JROSKA]

On the subject of risk tolerance, there’s one thing I’ve noticed on this site that’s a bit annoying. In terms of the overall culture.

Whenever there’s an accident that involves someone pushing the risk limit so to speak, like for instance, doing the Bells Traverse solo, climbing Jagged un-roped or hiking Long’s as their first 14er, anyone who dares question whether they may have taken on too much is essentially told to shut up, it’s a personal decision, don’t criticize.

And yet, when you go to the other extreme, of erring on the careful side, people aren’t at all shy to rip or shame that person. Just last week in the 14er Facebook group I got mocked for daring to post a picture during a Pyramid descent with a harness on. Two years ago I shared how I climbed Capitol Peak with a guide & had two separate folks questioning why I did that. Awhile back after climbing Kelso Ridge two guys on Torrey’s summit laughed at my climbing partner for using a helmet.

Whether it involves someone taking on too much risk (in someone’s opinion) or not willing to take on enough risk, I really think these decisions, no matter where they fall in the risk spectrum are highly personal, based on each individual’s age, family situation, health, confidence, among other things. Discussion is always healthy. But criticizing, or attempting to speak into, someone’s personal and private assessment of the degree of risk they want to take on in their mountain pursuits, is inappropriate, unacceptable and rude.

I’m in full agreement that those who are somewhat risk averse need to withhold judgment of those who are willing to take on risk to a high degree. It goes both ways though. It would be nice to see it on both sides.

[daway8]

I’m in full agreement that those who are somewhat risk averse need to withhold judgment of those who are willing to take on risk to a high degree. It goes both ways though. It would be nice to see it on both sides.

Agreed, there's a huge spectrum of people represented in this forum across all degrees of fitness, experience and risk tolerances.

In recent times I've been moving more and more into a higher risk category (such as recently going alone on the Bells Traverse with no ropes and staying mostly ridge proper over immense exposure with just regular hiking boots on my feet) but a good friend I hike with frequently has been sometimes hiring guides and getting roped up even on class 3, following a traumatic fall last year.

I fully respect and support my friend's decision to use guides and ropes on terrain I find easy (though I lack the rope work experience to directly support).

I don't think you can ever go wrong by everyone showing respect for one another's choices.

At the same time I'll add that those of us moving increasingly in high risk realms can benefit from the cautionary tales of others. You can look up my recent Little Bear report if you care to see my own reflections on such matters. In short, it's been a long slow process of me getting to where I am and I accept the risks of what I do while respecting those that have a much lower tolerance for risks.

For what it's worth, even with some of my recent high risk climbs, when I recently went up Kelso Ridge I did wear a helmet. It's kind of like how when I was a kid everyone laughed at wearing a helmet while riding a bike but slowly folks caught on that it really does make a lot of sense to so easily get a lot of extra protection so easily. Sadly it will probably take a few more people getting their heads cracked open before more people routinely wear helmets in terrain with elevated risks.

[desertdog]

I’ll usually wear a helmet on class 3 and above. Sometimes even 2+ if I’m going up a loose gully. I never got the helmet thing. Why wouldn’t you wear one? Are you worried about messing up your hair or something? I’ve not been on the FB a page much recently, but think it generally has quite a few people new to the sport. Knocking someone that is trying to “play it safe”, to me, is always a sign of someone that doesn’t have much experience. Taking on additional risk is a personal decision, sort of. If you get yourself in a crack (or die) because of taking on risk, you’ll involve others, since SAR would usually get called. Just my two pennies worth.

[Rollie Free]

We were climbing the upper reaches of a Crestone 14er when we heard above us an unsettling woman's scream.
As we were approaching the top of this class 3 route we met the woman and the man with her, bloody and torn in spots. He had fell, bounced on a series of ledges and ended up hitting his head pretty hard. He felt that the helmet he was wearing saved his life.
That made an impact on me.
Safety apparel, like helmets, aren't necessary until they are. You can climb for years without needing a helmet but the need develops and manifests itself without warning in a matter of a few seconds.

[14ercooper]

I'm one of these people who end to err on the side of caution (even if I still do some crazy solos). I'll wear helmets of a lot of stuff, I'll take it slow where I need to or turn around and leave a summit for another day. I'm not here to speedrun the mountains - I'm here to have a good time and to make sure I'm still having a good time in 30, 40, 50 years and not hobbled by some preventable accident.
One of my observations in the mountains is "people tend to dislike helmets until a baseball-sized rock whizzes past them at 50mph"

[pvnisher]

Safety gear means I get to research, test, hoard, and use more gear!

[AnnaG22]

Let's bear in mind that this time of year (and any time that precipitation is settling and freezing in the high peaks), the freeze thaw cycle tends to accelerate geologic shedding in the mountains.
So a climber can be doing everything else right but still get taken out if rock too large to be disturbed by hand or foot decides to move.

[mountainlover153]

My two cents;

-Helmets today seem less universal than in years past. In the 2000s, I rarely met anyone on a challenging 14er w/o a helmet. No fancy traversing required. It was understood as a necessary piece of kit on hard terrain, same as shoes are.

-When fewer people pursued the sport, it was safer. Routes were not overused, adding wear and tear to rocks and breaking off chunks, and smoothing out previously grippy surfaces like is the case now on Longs. Lower rockfall risk, lower rock dislodgement risk, with some asterisks.

-When mountaineering was pursued by fewer people, because it was less accessible with fewer resources and worse gear, those who did it tended to be better environmental stewards; LNT principles for example. Recently on Tabeguache, I had to pick up TWO SEPARATE plastic doggy bags filled with poo. Did I have to? No. Was I so irritated at the people that I felt a need to do it myself for the mountain and wildlifes sake, yes.

-Alltrails has not been good for the sport, same with the pandemic.

So, I don't think this will get better over time.

-I am personally a conservative risk taker, and have regularly been encouraged to proceed in uncertain weather, or told that a route is a cakewalk when it wasn't. If you like to tackle the bells traverse and then hit pyramid same day, more power to you. The mountains are for everyone, and that means not judging others for being above or below your abilities. If you bring a rope on a class 4: good. Own it, use it. Just know how to use it properly! One of my favorite self-coined sayings is: there are old climbers, and there are bold climbers, but there are no old bold climbers!

[onebyone]

I wore a helmet on the Maroon Bells traverse and the Crestone traverse.

Did not wear one on the Little Bear traverse but prob should have.

On all 3 of those, I saw rockfall on or near route.

[Tornadoman]

I think the community has become much more risk-taking in the past few years (both here, on other 14er forums, and especially on IG). It seems like those of us who are fairly conservative aren't appreciated and valued anymore thus you see less posts from some of the old guard- if you question someone's poor decision making you are the one who is derided. It seems like the posts that generate approval within the greater Colorado mountain community are those involving people on the 'elite' edge of the spectrum (unroped Class 5, many peaks done in a day, and FKTs). I can't count the number of times lately that I see experienced members of the community several peaks deep into the day with black clouds all around them who should have already descended. 10 years ago these people would have been asked what they were thinking, now they are applauded for their bravery.

The 'average joe' hiker and conservative decision making is viewed indifferently by many in this community. One of the things I take most pride in is doing the peaks as safely as possible- this means picking the right weather, conditions, and route choice (alternatives are always an option). I didn't do any of the Great Traverses as I felt they added risk I didn't want to take- just go ahead an asterik next to my 14er finisher list.

For gear- I always were a helmet on C3, usually on C2+ and sometimes even on regular C2 if it was steep grass and felt there was some risk of rockfall from above. Yeah, I'm not cool. Rant over.

[12ersRule]

In recent times I've been moving more and more into a higher risk category (such as recently going alone on the Bells Traverse with no ropes and staying mostly ridge proper over immense exposure with just regular hiking boots on my feet)

This sounds like a dangerous addiction. Please consider adding more tools to your toolkit (like ropes) vs. just pushing up the risk factor.

For gear- I always were a helmet on C3, usually on C2+ and sometimes even on regular C2 if it was steep grass and felt there was some risk of rockfall from above. Yeah, I'm not cool. Rant over.

I think you're cool.