Appropriate discussion around mountaineering accidents

[dan0rama]

Two queries from the other thread that attempt to come off as harmless but more than likely would make surviving family feel worse when read or spoken to their face:

1. ‘All due respect to the recently deceased, but.... (proceed to claim getting off-route in that area is not possible or possible only for the unintelligent.’

2. ‘Didn’t the forecast call for it to be messy up there?’


Do some of us attend funerals for people killed on motorcycles and ask the family if they were wearing a helmet? So that we can learn from the mistakes and know better about wearing helmets when riding? Or just wonder out loud about wearing helmets while moving through the food line at the reception? Same for people who die of heart disease? ‘I’m so sorry for your loss. Did she ever try dieting?’

EXCELLENT question. Also, do some of us attend a swingers party, after seeing a sign at the door that read "Swingers Party", and get pissed off when someone tries to hook up with our wives?

[speth]

- Well-wishes, condolences, remembrances

No-brainer - this is totally normal.

- Links to SAR update / News articles

I think generally fine - SAR organizations have begun to use social media and press releases for sending out information. News organizations can be hit or miss, but are generally pretty good with sharing information (but occasionally get technical information wrong - lack of subject matter expertise).

- First-hand accounts

No-brainer - if you were there and want to share information, that's your prerogative. Jon Kedrowski sharing photos of a bloody and injured Jeff Lodico is the only instance I can think of where I would say "Not Appropriate". Otherwise, if you were involved with the accident or the rescue, I think sharing information is up to you.

- Second-hand requests for first-hand information

Hard no. You're a gossip hound. Other people have gone through a bad experience - if they want to share, they will, and otherwise mind your own business.

Second-hand speculation about causes / factors that can't be verified

Hard no. You're a gossip hound. You're also unqualified to analyze the accident in way that would be helpful for others in the future, and you're relying on half-truths and missing information to fill in the gaps. Leave analysis to people like SAR organizations and ANAM, and mind your own business.

General climbing safety questions / advice

I don't know what qualifies here - suggestions on watching the weather? Watching for loose rock? I think you see a lot of new people doing drive-by-posting in accident discussions with something like "It looks like John Doe got caught in a thunderstorm - would it be safe if I...." These types of questions can be answered the same for basically any trip into the outdoors ever: Watch the weather forecast. Plan appropriately. Wear the correct clothes. Don't choose routes beyond your experience level. Where's the "analysis and discussion" about not hiking in a thunderstorm?

Respectful debate over accident discussion guidelines

The subject is beat to death - there should be a final discussion for 14ers.com on what the rules are, and the community should stick to it. Hide certain topics? Wild speculation is totally fine? Stay quiet to respect the families of those injured in the backcountry? Whatever - just figure out what the guidelines are and then move on. This stuff isn't rocket science - facebook or mountainproject or lists of john can have their own community standards on the topic, and so should this website. But it should be figured out and put to rest.

Disrespect / personal insults / flame wars

Hard no, and no-brainer. Don't be a jerk.

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Part of this debate that continues to baffle me is that people want all of this to be hashed out in public, how someone got messed up from a fall or froze to death or whatever. The vast majority of injuries and deaths concerning 14ers are from either people not having the requite skills for the planning of their outdoors activities and making bad decisions before walking out the door of their homes, or an act-of-god situation where a rock comes loose, or someone slips on talus or snow. The idea that there's so, so much information to be gained from hashing out details of nearly every incident is absurd.

When did all of this have to be constantly aired out on public message boards each and every time? Have people never heard of phones calls, or text messages, emails and face-to-face talks with people you actually know? In the era of social media, does every thought in your head need to be publicly expressed?

[Eli Boardman]

I would argue that you should already know the importance of checking the weather and being prepared for bad and changing conditions without having to read about an accident. And I'm having a hard time comprehending why some have a problem understanding mountaineering risk and consequences .

This is entirely the perspective of someone with the arrogance of "experience".

So read FOTH or join a CMC class or literally just Google "mountaineering safety."

[Scott P]

In the past few years I have not engaged as much in the conversations about accidents (other than offering condolences), but I I have felt myself at times wanting to add some information (if I know it) when someone points the finger at land management agencies.

The following incidence come to mind:

The first is the Kolob Creek disaster in which two scout leaders were kills and which happened in 1993. Many sources (including the families involved) pointed the finger at the NPS and said that the canyoneers were never warned of any danger. I know this to be blatantly false because one of my dad's friends (Dale Green-we did a lot of trips with him back in the day) was asked by David Fleisher (the leader of the Kolob Creek trip that ended in disaster) about conditions in Kolob Creek and Dale warned him that conditions were and and not to go and to not take scouts in there.

Should I have spoken up (I did at times) when people were posting all over with their anger and blame towards the NPS while claiming that the group had zero warnings of the dangers or is it not my place? Maybe it's isn't my place, but I don't have a right answer and I didn't (and still don't) think it was fair that the NPS received the brunt of the blame. Although it has now been almost three decades since the incident happened, it still affects canyoneers today since it has become much harder to obtain a permit to do one of the best canyons out there and the water district (which was also sued) often gives misleading information to try and prevent the NPS from issuing permits. More than anything, this incident was responsible for the whole canyoneering permitting system in Zion.

I have changed my mind about participating in such discussions (I have in the past) other than saying something general such as "most of the recent deaths on Capitol were a result of getting off route" to get across a point on the importance of route-finding. With rare exceptions, I'm just going to offer condolences in all but rare exceptions.

[JaredJohnson]

I take your general point that these things could be troubling to loved ones and that is worth discussing. But

‘All due respect to the recently deceased, but.... (proceed to claim getting off-route in that area is not possible or possible only for the unintelligent.’

I assume you're talking about this message?

Don't they have a sign warning climbers not to descend there? Not maligning the deceased, but I distinctly recall there being a sign at the False Keyhole warning climbers of the problem. I haven't been up there in years, however, maybe it was taken down?

He said: "I distinctly recall there being a sign[...] I haven't been up there in years, however, maybe it was taken down?"
... You characterized this as: "(proceed to claim getting off-route in that area is not possible or possible only for the unintelligent"

This seems like a pretty cynical mis-reading of his question. Tom didn't claim to know whether a sign actually exists, or claim to know why someone wouldn't see or heed it if it's there; let alone claim that lack of intelligence was a likely explanation. It looks like people concluded (speculated) that the sign had nothing to do with the issue, but it's not like anybody proved Tom wrong about anything that he claimed or even remotely implied.

The participants in this forum aren't the chief victims in this situation, but they don't deserve unfair treatment either, and bashing them doesn't help the real victims any

[greenonion]

My god. Can the bickering finally cease? Discuss accidents, but quit one-upping and nit-picking each other ad nauseam, please.

[jibler]

Respectful debate over accident discussion guidelines

just gonna chime in - that this sounds like a 'meta' discussion that should be self contained within own thread - and is definitely not right for specific incident descriptions.


i swear this place gets all riled up in the most inexplicable directions though

[Tim A]

Scott,

Completely agree in that instance that more should have been said by parties ‘in the know’ about exonerating the NPS, but I completely understand the conflict with not throwing the rescued party under the bus for being ‘at fault.’ Pretty disappointing that the end result is more limited access to the place it happened in.

Jared,

I respect you and your intent to learn from others, we just disagree with the ‘value’ placed on message board discussions from parties not present and whether it also has a cost to friends/relatives of the climbers who may or may not be reading.

[JaredJohnson]

I respect you and your intent to learn from others, we just disagree with the ‘value’ placed on message board discussions from parties not present and whether it also has a cost to friends/relatives of the climbers who may or may not be reading.

Agreed. I can't very well assume you're arguing in bad faith just for agreeing with at least half of this community:

> pollguesses([7,6,6,21,50,25,44,93]);
probably 7 but as many as 19 respondents were confused or just want to watch the world burn
86-93 respondents were probably serious
23%-29% of respondents want discussion/debate only for people directly involved (niceties for everyone else)
46%-58% of respondents want to put a stop to speculation
42%-54% of respondents consider speculation to be an appropriate exercise


But be nice to Tom (:

[Trotter]

I agree that many of the mistakes that wind up being discussed are already understood, but not always, and at any rate talking through them can help underline and impress on people the risks and considerations. I agree there are publications that get the facts more correct and should be read. I also think it's natural, acceptable, and useful for people in the community to talk through events that are closer to them.

There was a very beloved person that passed away while glissading with a hiking pole instead of an ice axe. AFAIK this detail was brought up and discussed delicately and respectfully on this forum. I don't presume to know how things could have otherwise gone, and I was already aware of the "don't glissade without an ice axe" mantra before this. But now any time the subject of glissading comes up I think of this person and all the people that grieved for them, and I'm deadly serious with myself and my companions about this and similar dangers. It makes me reflect more seriously on questions like whether the equipment I'm considering entrusting my life with is designed for that purpose.

Another forum member fell a couple of thousand feet off pyramid peak solo in the winter and spent a couple of days painfully making it out on his own with a broken hip. I bought a PLB after reading his TR. When I'm planning solo winter trips I often see that guy's struggle in my mind and consider whether I'm being overly optimistic about my skills and the risks involved.

The misfortunes of others so close to my own time and place lend gravity to my practice and to my choices about what to attempt and how to prepare. If some oversimplify and say "here are two mistakes that can get you killed or ruin your weekend, I carry a PLB and an ice axe so I'll be fine", then I guess morons gonna moron. Reading remote reports in publications with definitive root causes may feed that foolishness more readily than talking through recent events in our back yard that sadden us and give us pause.

I agree. Some of the accidents, deaths, and near misses have affected what gear I bring, or what I do differently in the mountains.

Long ago, I had heard about "don't glissade with a treking pole" and I figured it was like someone saying "Speeding in your car is dangerous". Sure I understand, but does that actually stop me from speeding? It wasn't until I read about talusmonkey in the 14er disasters book, that I comprehended exactly what could happen, and the amount of suffering that could come from that action. So that analysis possibly saved my life, and possibly many others. I'd say thats worth it.

I understand that for some people, seeing the analysis of someone's injury or death is triggering or offensive, but if we didn't discuss things, we don't learn lessons. If it offends you, stay out of that thread maybe. If the internet only had things that wouldn't offend anyone, we wouldn't have an internet.

[Monster5]

The guy below is one of my main partners. You're highlighting the following out of his accident:

-Carry PLB
-Insinuation that he was overly optimistic about his skills and risks.

Is that correct? Is that all?

Another forum member fell a couple of thousand feet off pyramid peak solo in the winter and spent a couple of days painfully making it out on his own with a broken hip. I bought a PLB after reading his TR. When I'm planning solo winter trips I often see that guy's struggle in my mind and consider whether I'm being overly optimistic about my skills and the risks involved.

[JROSKA]

The guy below is one of my main partners. You're highlighting the following out of his accident:

-Carry PLB
-Insinuation that he was overly optimistic about his skills and risks.

Is that correct? Is that all?

Another forum member fell a couple of thousand feet off pyramid peak solo in the winter and spent a couple of days painfully making it out on his own with a broken hip. I bought a PLB after reading his TR. When I'm planning solo winter trips I often see that guy's struggle in my mind and consider whether I'm being overly optimistic about my skills and the risks involved.

Seems to me that Jared is just trying to point out a few things he learned on a personal level, that he otherwise may not have learned, by another forum member sharing their experience. Not really sure here how you’re making the leap to him being critical of your climbing partner.