Chill man, you can pull the stick out of your ass once in a while, life isn't that serioushighpilgrim wrote: ↑Thu May 07, 2020 9:47 amLike Captco, you should just shut up sometimes.
To paraphrase Steve Gladbach, Rocks move, feet slip and snow slides...and more time in the field increases the likelihood of that happening.
Glissading Accident Horn's Peak (Sangres)
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Re: Glissading Accident Horn's Peak (Sangres)
Those who travel to mountain-tops are half in love with themselves and half in love with oblivion
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Re: Glissading Accident Horn's Peak (Sangres)
And therein lies the difference between you and Captco; one of you can learn from your mistakes.
Call on God, but row away from the rocks.
Hunter S Thompson
Walk away from the droning and leave the hive behind.
Dick Derkase
Hunter S Thompson
Walk away from the droning and leave the hive behind.
Dick Derkase
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Re: Glissading Accident Horn's Peak (Sangres)
What are you talking about? You are offended by me poking fun at that expression? If you didn't find the stupid joke funny, don't laugh.highpilgrim wrote: ↑Thu May 07, 2020 10:22 amAnd therein lies the difference between you and Captco; one of you can learn from your mistakes.
It seems like you adopt a confrontational approach to deal with those who disagree with your points of view, it's uncalled for but whatever...
Those who travel to mountain-tops are half in love with themselves and half in love with oblivion
Re: Glissading Accident Horn's Peak (Sangres)
I think The Deuce is heavily influenced and inspired by his favorite human, President Trump. Very similar traits!
hahha
Edit: But ker0uac, I really don't understand your poke at Fire, but whatever.
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Re: Glissading Accident Horn's Peak (Sangres)
On a positive note, drumpf's valet has the bug. Maybe he'll take it serious at this point.
Not.
Call on God, but row away from the rocks.
Hunter S Thompson
Walk away from the droning and leave the hive behind.
Dick Derkase
Hunter S Thompson
Walk away from the droning and leave the hive behind.
Dick Derkase
Re: Glissading Accident Horn's Peak (Sangres)
Thanks, DArcy, but it'd be hypocritical of me not to open my decisions up to criticism or analysis. I'd rather the criticism be based on incident facts and first-hand decision-making than have someone project/judge decisions based on inaccurate news reports, or third-hand analysis. The Peru incident had a good outcome, whereas a number other snow accidents I've been party to have not.
In this case, we have a fairly objective report of the incident by the CAIC but we're lacking a first hand account of decisions which led to the accident. Per the CAIC report, I'm sure the party could argue minor details (one sun-drenched aspect to another or time of incident), but the overall summary is more or less accurate: a party descended a sun-drenched avalanche path rather than the trail.
We do not have a first-hand report of the decision-making process and it is fully their choice for when/if to provide one. Thus we cannot truly judge or analyze the decisions accurately. Nor is it prudent to demand.
We do have Pat's report of why certain decisions were made, for better or worse, but in order for us to empathize and calibrate our own decision-making process, it is important to understand both the pros and cons of each justification. IMO, it is hubristic and unproductive to portray decisions as good without likewise pointing out the bad. I can point to a handful of decisions I make on every single trip that worked out well but easily could have worked out poorly, and vice versa.
Ironically, in my experience, some of the best, boldest, and most-respected climbers are quite oblivious to consequences. Sometimes I wish I had their ability to turn the mind off when blitzing across a shooting gallery. But then again, I'm glad that most of my partners are still alive.
In this case, we have a fairly objective report of the incident by the CAIC but we're lacking a first hand account of decisions which led to the accident. Per the CAIC report, I'm sure the party could argue minor details (one sun-drenched aspect to another or time of incident), but the overall summary is more or less accurate: a party descended a sun-drenched avalanche path rather than the trail.
We do not have a first-hand report of the decision-making process and it is fully their choice for when/if to provide one. Thus we cannot truly judge or analyze the decisions accurately. Nor is it prudent to demand.
We do have Pat's report of why certain decisions were made, for better or worse, but in order for us to empathize and calibrate our own decision-making process, it is important to understand both the pros and cons of each justification. IMO, it is hubristic and unproductive to portray decisions as good without likewise pointing out the bad. I can point to a handful of decisions I make on every single trip that worked out well but easily could have worked out poorly, and vice versa.
Ironically, in my experience, some of the best, boldest, and most-respected climbers are quite oblivious to consequences. Sometimes I wish I had their ability to turn the mind off when blitzing across a shooting gallery. But then again, I'm glad that most of my partners are still alive.
"The road to alpine climbing is pocked and poorly marked, ending at an unexpectedly closed gate 5 miles from the trailhead." - MP user Beckerich
Re: Glissading Accident Horn's Peak (Sangres)
Monster, do you think they're truly oblivious or have they become complacent, falling into the heuristic traps/human factor symptoms?
Re: Glissading Accident Horn's Peak (Sangres)
Yes?
As much as the age trope is overused, I'd generally place younger climbers in the oblivious camp and older climbers in the heuristic trap camp. With caveat.
Either way, there is a spectrum for the sorts who stand in front of a gun barrel.
Seek it out, avoid it, ignore it, or perhaps wait until it might be unloaded. Whatever floats your boat.
As much as the age trope is overused, I'd generally place younger climbers in the oblivious camp and older climbers in the heuristic trap camp. With caveat.
Either way, there is a spectrum for the sorts who stand in front of a gun barrel.
Seek it out, avoid it, ignore it, or perhaps wait until it might be unloaded. Whatever floats your boat.
"The road to alpine climbing is pocked and poorly marked, ending at an unexpectedly closed gate 5 miles from the trailhead." - MP user Beckerich
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Re: Glissading Accident Horn's Peak (Sangres)
Yeah, I pondered that comment too...but agree with it. Makes me wonder if it's a learned skill or just a roll of the dice. Sometimes I beat myself up for taking too conservative approach and bailing off a climb. Occasionally for objective reasons, but often for subjective reasons too fuzzy to articulate (just not into that day/"sixth sense," whatever). But afterwards I'll occasionally think about some bold people I've climbed with or knew of who would have gone forward, and then think "well, he's now dead, and that guy is dead..." There's no answer to this riddle, but worth thinking about.
-Tom
Re: Glissading Accident Horn's Peak (Sangres)
Well if glissading down a snow trough has say a 1% chance of sliding, and you do it 49 times without no problems, its very easy to think its safe to do and approach the next time with no hesitation. But we all take minor risks without considering that it could go bad. Even hiking a 14er, statistically if you do it enough, you will get injured. Does that actually stop us? Clearly not.
You have to choose your level of risk you are comfortable with. Most of us would probably glissade down a slope that has a 0.1% chance of a slide...but what about 1% ? Or 10% ?
After climbing a great hill, one only finds that there are many more hills to climb. -Nelson Mandela
Whenever I climb I am followed by a dog called Ego. -Nietzsche
Whenever I climb I am followed by a dog called Ego. -Nietzsche