Scrambling = "technical"

[Wildernessjane]

The "more technical" is interesting. If you said "Steve Buscemi is more handsome than Post Malone" are you really saying "Steve Buscemi is handsome"?

Lol I had to look up who that was. No comment.

I personally think the dictionary definition of “Requiring advanced skills or specialized equipment” provides more clarity than just using a rope versus not using a rope. Advanced skills could include trad climbing skills, roped glacier travel, running belays, crevasse rescue, self arrest skills, cramponing technique, etc. At the end of the day, I’m not sure it’s really all that important but no I would never refer to Kelso ridge as a “technical climb” even those times when I used crampons and an ice axe.

[Bale]

From the dictionary:
Technical: Requiring advanced skills or specialized equipment.
Scramble: To move or climb hurriedly, especially on the hands and knees.

Seems pretty clear.
Using your hands isn't an advanced skill. Straddling a ridge isn't an advanced skill.

Gray area would be snow climbs. But since it requires specialized equipment, it falls into the technical area.
Snow climbing is scrambling with tools.

Alternately, apply the metal detector test.
If a reasonable person has to use something metal (atc, crampons, pro) then it's technical. The more metal you have to use, the more technical it is (aid, etc).

If you want to get technical (see what I did there), using your hands, feet, head, and fitness in a certain way is absolutely an advanced skill. Special hand and foot jams, ring locks, chimney and off width techniques, good footwork and body position on slabs, even mental fortitude for exposure are skills that Jane/ Joe Schmo have to learn and train for. Therefore, I maintain that one can climb a “technical” route with no rope or gear. Obviously it’s been done.
Ok, getting a bit deep in the weeds. Nice Buscemi pull up there:)

[SchralpTheGnar]

I consider jello ridge to be a technical route in as much as It requires advanced skills to ascend.

[Conor]

The "more technical" is interesting. If you said "Steve Buscemi is more handsome than Post Malone" are you really saying "Steve Buscemi is handsome"?

Lol I had to look up who that was. No comment.

I personally think the dictionary definition of “Requiring advanced skills or specialized equipment” provides more clarity than just using a rope versus not using a rope. Advanced skills could include trad climbing skills, roped glacier travel, running belays, crevasse rescue, self arrest skills, cramponing technique, etc. At the end of the day, I’m not sure it’s really all that important but no I would never refer to Kelso ridge as a “technical climb”. I’m doubtful you will find consensus within the community.

So where do you draw the line? LB-Blanca? I would say no. Or even little bear itself where people agree it is 4th class but some insist on not practicing leave no trace (one man's rope is another man's toilet paper)? I don't really think having people talk about it is how a group gains consensus. I think watching people vote with their ropes/gear is the best. For instance, my favorite "I just met you let's see if we can actually climb together" climb is Wind Ridge in Eldo. Something I know a boulder would have to fall and hit me for me to come off. But, the last two times a free soloer has passed me. So, since 5% of the people free solo it and most would if they had to, I still think it is a technical climb. Conversely, almost no one drags a rope along wilson-ED, so that isn't a technical climb. Wham ridge seems like it is on the cusp as it is more even split, but the general consensus seems to be it is a technical climb. OS on the grand the same.

I have a hard time of labeling any glacier travel as "technical." I think of the DC route on Rainier where I am hard pressed to find any "Advanced skills". I see the "specialized equipment", but you may be more correct than me on this as I am probably letting my mountaineering snobbery get in the way (low skilled people getting drug up the mountain by guides). But, since the dictionary definition (which I don't like) has an 'OR' operator, can "technical" be bought at REI? Should it really have 'AND'?

I'll throw out another question, "what about seasonality"? And if the same route can be technical in the winter and not in the summer, what about conditions?

Can you tell my wife and kids are out of town?

[Bale]

Nice post Conor. The seasonality question is a good one. I know climbs that are safer and more fun in dry conditions and others that are way nicer with snow cover. We can agree that, for the most part, the Rocky Mountains in the dead of winter are more committing/ dangerous than summer due to avalanches, cold, short days, ice covered rock, longer approaches, etc.
Does that make them more technical? Probably.

[Wildernessjane]

So where do you draw the line? LB-Blanca? I would say no. Or even little bear itself where people agree it is 4th class but some insist on not practicing leave no trace (one man's rope is another man's toilet paper)? I don't really think having people talk about it is how a group gains consensus. I think watching people vote with their ropes/gear is the best. For instance, my favorite "I just met you let's see if we can actually climb together" climb is Wind Ridge in Eldo. Something I know a boulder would have to fall and hit me for me to come off. But, the last two times a free soloer has passed me. So, since 5% of the people free solo it and most would if they had to, I still think it is a technical climb. Conversely, almost no one drags a rope along wilson-ED, so that isn't a technical climb. Wham ridge seems like it is on the cusp as it is more even split, but the general consensus seems to be it is a technical climb. OS on the grand the same.

I have a hard time of labeling any glacier travel as "technical." I think of the DC route on Rainier where I am hard pressed to find any "Advanced skills". I see the "specialized equipment", but you may be more correct than me on this as I am probably letting my mountaineering snobbery get in the way (low skilled people getting drug up the mountain by guides). But, since the dictionary definition (which I don't like) has an 'OR' operator, can "technical" be bought at REI? Should it really have 'AND'?

I'll throw out another question, "what about seasonality"? And if the same route can be technical in the winter and not in the summer, what about conditions?

Can you tell my wife and kids are out of town?

To me the fact that so many people hire guides for Rainier is indicative of one needing technical skills to do it. Although I believe people hire guides for a variety of reasons, one way to overcome not having the technical skills to do something is to hire a guide. While I totally get what you are saying on this, how do you feel about someone hiring a guide to climb a classic rock climbing route such as Bastille Crack? I know someone who did just that. While it is a serious route and people have died and been seriously injured on it, one does not have to be a hardcore climber to follow on it. If necessary, a guide could even provide a little help through a crux move by setting up a 3:1. Does this make Bastille Crack any less of a technical climb because someone hired a guide to do it? I wouldn’t think so. So technically sport climbing and top-roping would fall under the umbrella of technical climbing, right? I would argue independent glacial travel involves more technical skills than single pitch sport climbing and certainly than top-roping.

So here’s another question - does your audience influence how you describe routes? For example, I could see where if someone with absolutely no glacial experience asked me whether DC route on Rainier is a technical climb I would say, “Yes, there are certain technical skills that you need to have.” If someone with lots of glacier experience asked me that same question, I would say “No” because I know they have a basic understanding of what is required for glacier travel and already possess these skills. Does that make sense?

So how do I define a technical climb? I think this is where it makes sense to think about technical climbing as being on a continuum. East Face Direct on the Third Flatiron is less technical than Bastille Crack, which is less technical than the Casual Route on the Diamond. As you progress to more technical routes, more gear is likely required (though possibly not always) and increasing amounts of skill needed. If preferred, I think the semi-technical, technical and highly technical descriptions could also be used.

Honestly, I’m not really sure where I draw that line between a route requiring some technical skills to this is now what I would consider a “technical climb”. I don’t really even think Wham Ridge is a technical climb unless you go up the center. Lots of people solo the crux and even if you protect it, it’s just that one move back onto the face. The moves required do not involve advanced climbing techniques. The Flatirons are also a conundrum. Lots of people solo the classic East face direct routes but many do choose to rope up. Technical climbing? Technical scrambling, maybe? Not sure.

You also bring up a good point about routes becoming technical or more technical as conditions vary or in different seasons. There are a number of couloirs that can be easily solo’ed early in the season but turn to ice later on.

Sorry, I know I still didn’t answer your question.

[rijaca]

When does a ‘walk up’ become ‘scrambling’?

[pvnisher]

When does a ‘walk up’ become ‘scrambling’?

When you start scrambling.
See: definition of scrambling.

[Scott P]

When does a ‘walk up’ become ‘scrambling’?

Scrambling hen you need to use your hands, but I have heard the trem "walk up" to mean non-technical.

[rijaca]

Does Bierstadt require any scrambling?

[OldTrad]

Does Bierstadt require any scrambling?

Yes, as you traverse the Sawtooth to Evans, or when you climb it via the E Ridge.

p.s., don’t worry though, I think you’ll be able to handle it

[Monster5]

Re. guides, seasons, glacier, pros 4th classing, etc -

I think Eli's summary more or less represents the accepted standards of communication for non-technical, semi-technical, and technical for beta purposes.
Those guidelines apply across seasons and with guides if you consider it in general terms. Naturally guidelines fail to account for every nitpick scenario (pro climber solos 5.13). Yes, most climbers will use a rope, crampons, and ax on Capitol's standard in winter, making it technical in some seasons. Yes, most will use ropes on even Rainier's standard routes and Bastille due to crevasse and fall risks, respectively, making them technical despite a guide's presence.

Personally, I think most CO mountaineering viewpoints tend to be misaligned with international viewpoints on all matters mountaineering. We have a weird fixation on peak quantity being the end-all here. That leads into another weird fixation on how to define peaks. And also into weird fixations on how to define difficulty, given our perceived creme de la creme is in fact the scramble route up Capitol.