Petition to rename Kit Carson

[MountainHiker]

I don't believe GNIS and/or the U.S. Board on Geographic names are interested in naming massifs but are only interested in naming summits with distinct coordinates. It appears to me that the highest point was officially named Kit Carson Peak in 1906, then changed to Kit Carson Mountain in 1970. I believe this is the view of both Gerry Roach and John Kirk and explains why they use the name Kit Carson Mountain.

Not sure about his this, but I think the coordinates are given so you can find the feature, not to declare that only under that one spot, as opposed to a feature with some size. Rivers have names and certainly aren't only one point.

Where is the evidence that in 1970, the entire massif, as opposed to the highest point, was then officially given the name Kit Carson Mountain?

From the BGN report: http://geonames.usgs.gov/domestic/quarterly_list.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; review list 397
"The 1970 decision made clear that the name applied to the entire mile-long mountain and not just to
one of its peaks."
The label on the USGS map goes across the whole massif, not just tagged from the summit.

[Fred_Bauder]

Where is the evidence that in 1970, the entire massif, as opposed to the highest point, was then officially given the name Kit Carson Mountain?

From the BGN report: http://geonames.usgs.gov/domestic/quarterly_list.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; review list 397
"The 1970 decision made clear that the name applied to the entire mile-long mountain and not just to
one of its peaks."
The label on the USGS map goes across the whole massif, not just tagged from the summit.

Mount Crestone: summit; elevation 4,317 m (14,165 ft); in Rio Grande National Forest, in the
Sangre de Cristo Range, 8 km (5 mi) E of the community of Crestone; named in association with
the nearby community of Crestone; Saguache County, Colorado; 37°58’47”N, 105°36’09”W;
USGS map – Crestone Peak 1:24,000; Not: Frustum Peak, Haystack Baldy, Kit Carson Mountain
(BGN 1970), Kit Carson Peak (BGN 1906).
http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=37. ... ize=l&s=50" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Proposal: to change a name to eliminate confusion and to replace a name believed by some
to be objectionable
Map: USGS Crestone Peak 1:24,000
Proponent: Keno Menechino; Crestone, CO
Administrative area: Great Sand Dunes National Park
Previous BGN Action: Kit Carson Mountain (BGN 1970), Kit Carson Peak (BGN 1906)
Names associated with feature:
GNIS: Kit Carson Mountain (FID 204778)
Local Usage: Kit Carson Mountain (hikers, mountain climbers)
Published: Kit Carson Mountain (USGS 1967, 1982, 1988; peakbagger.com)
Case Summary: This proposal is to change officially the name of Kit Carson Mountain to Mount
Crestone. The summit in question has an elevation of 4,318 m (14,165 ft) and is located in the
Sangre de Cristo Range in western Saguache County. It also lies within the Rio Grande National
Forest. The proponent of the name change, who is a resident of the nearby community of Crestone
and a local newspaper reporter, states that local residents have long felt the existing name is
confusing because most of them refer to the peak as Crestone Peak, while the name Kit Carson
Mountain refers to a different summit “behind Crestone Peak.” He claims the U.S. Geological
Survey “got this all wrong years ago and never reversed the mistake.” He adds, “The people of this
town are not happy with the wrong names being used and refuse to call them what they officially
are today. The current Kit Carson Mountain is the main mountain above town, which can be
viewed from all over town (as the official Crestone Peak cannot be). Crestone was named after this
mountain.” He adds, “When out of town hikers and mountain climbers visit and ask locals about
conditions and terrain up on Kit Carson Mountain, they are instead told about conditions and terrain
up on Crestone Peak, and vice versa. The terrain on these two mountains [is] a bit different… [and]
wrong info in this case can kill.”
Along with his application, the proponent provided an undated Forest Service sketch map that he
notes shows “Crestone Pk.” in the foreground at an elevation of 14,291 feet, with “Kit Carson Mt.”
behind at 14,100 feet. Because of the widespread use of the name Crestone in the area, he suggests
the new name for Kit Carson Mountain should be Mount Crestone rather than Crestone Peak, as
that name already applies to another summit just one mile further to the southwest. It should also
be noted that Crestone Peak and Crestone Needle are two of the named summits that collectively
make up Crestone Peaks. Each of these three names was the subject of a 1969 BGN decision,
which was made in order to clarify the singular vs. plural forms of the various names in the area.
The summit now proposed to be renamed from Kit Carson Mountain to Mount Crestone was
originally named Kit Carson Peak in a 1906 BGN decision, but was given its present name in 1970.
The 1970 decision made clear that the name applied to the entire mile-long mountain and not just to
one of its peaks. Finally, two of the three most prominent peaks atop Kit Carson Mountain have
been the subject of more recent BGN decisions: Challenger Point was named in 1985 and Columbia
Point in 2003 (a third proposal, to name a sub-peak Galaxy Peak, was recently withdrawn). The
proponent is also asking that the highest peak atop the proposed “Mount Crestone” should be
named Tranquility Peak (q.v.); this peak does not currently have an official name of its own.
The proponent also cites another reason why he believes the name Kit Carson Mountain should be
eliminated; the individual for whom the summit and nine other features in the State were named is
not popular in the community of Crestone. He notes, “They feel that Kit Carson was a war
criminal, not a war hero. The Native Americans, Buddhists and Hindus in the area seem very
united on this, and they represent a large group of the population.”
Included in the 1969 Crestone Peak case file is a letter, dated 1947, from the Colorado Mountain
Club (CMC) discussing a rumor they’d heard, via the Forest Service, that “a resident of the town of
Crestone” wanted to rename Kit Carson Peak to Crestone Peak, and that the CMC wished to go on
record strongly opposing the idea. They noted, “We believe that [t]here are more mountaineers
who know the entire range rather than a small group of local residents who know only the peak
nearest to them.” In 1951, another letter was received, also from the CMC and also opposing any
efforts to change the name of Crestone Peak (the 14,294 foot peak to the south) to Kit Carson Peak.
A petition signed by members of the Sangre de Cristo Club opposing the latter idea was also
included, as were several letters from local residents, schoolchildren, and the San Luis Valley
Travel Association. In both cases, the BGN responded that no such proposals had been received
but that all parties would be notified if anything was submitted. It appears nothing further came of
either of the suggestions.
More recent research conducted by an archivist with the Colorado Mountain Club reveals that the
1878 Wheeler Survey referred to the “unnamed” peak by the descriptive name Frustum Peak. The
word “frustum” refers to “a pyramid with the top chopped off,” which the author notes could refer
to Kit Carson Mountain but more likely to Humboldt Peak.
Tranquility Peak: summit; elevation 4,317 m (14,165 ft); in Rio Grande National Forest, in the
Sangre de Cristo Range, at the highest point of Kit Carson Mountain (proposed Mount Crestone);
the name reflects the tranquility found in the citizens of the community below the summit;
Saguache County, Colorado; 37°58’47”N, 105°36’09”W; USGS map – Crestone Peak 1:24,000;
Not: Kit Carson Peak.
http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=37. ... ize=l&s=50" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Proposal: new name for an unnamed feature
Map: USGS Crestone Peak 1:24,000
Proponent: Keno Menechino; Crestone, CO
Administrative area: Rio Grande National Forest
Previous BGN Action: None
Names associated with feature:
GNIS: No record
Local Usage: Kit Carson Peak (mountain climbers and hikers)
Published: Kit Carson Peak (Hayden Survey; USFS 1964, 1967; General Land Office
1934; Colorado State Highway map, 1969; Colorado Mountain Club 1923; Ormes
1952, 1955, 1970; mountain climbing and hiking websites)
Case Summary: This proposal is to apply the new name Tranquility Peak to the highest peak atop
Kit Carson Mountain, which is proposed to be renamed Mount Crestone (q.v.). The 4,317 m
(14,165 ft) summit lies between the two other named peaks, Challenger Point (BGN 1985) and
Columbia Point (BGN 2003). The proponent of Tranquility Peak, a resident of the nearby
community of Crestone and a reporter with the local newspaper, suggests the name would be
appropriate as it describes the tranquility found in the citizens of Crestone, the community that sits
below the peak. Prior to 1906, the name Kit Carson Peak was the official name of the larger
feature, but in that year, the BGN voted to approve a change in the generic from “Peak” to
“Mountain” so that the name would more accurately refer to the whole feature not just to one
specific peak. Although the 14,165 foot peak in question is officially unnamed, there are numerous
older maps, plus mountain climbing and hiking guides and several websites, which identify it as Kit
Carson Peak. These range from a Colorado Mountain Club report published in 1923, to a General
Land Office map from 1934 and Forest Service maps published in the 1960’s. There are no other
geographic features in Colorado named “Tranquility.”

I hope this long quotation does not get me thrown off the list, Here is the stuff I personally object to:

[Keno] notes, “They feel that Kit Carson was a war
criminal, not a war hero. The Native Americans, Buddhists and Hindus in the area seem very
united on this, and they represent a large group of the population.”

Kit Carson is an archaic figure from 150 years ago and can certain be criticized, but they demonize him.

[BillMiddlebrook]

I don't believe GNIS and/or the U.S. Board on Geographic names are interested in naming massifs but are only interested in naming summits with distinct coordinates. It appears to me that the highest point was officially named Kit Carson Peak in 1906, then changed to Kit Carson Mountain in 1970. I believe this is the view of both Gerry Roach and John Kirk and explains why they use the name Kit Carson Mountain. Where is the evidence that in 1970, the entire massif, as opposed to the highest point, was then officially given the name Kit Carson Mountain?

As Fred noted, here's where there's more confusion. Check out how it's even labeled on the USGS map. Also, Crestone Peaks (also designated as a "summit" in the GNIS) is out there with different coordinates than Crestone Peak, with notes including "Extends NW-SE for 1.7 mi, in the Sangre de Cristo Range, 38 mi NNe of Alamosa. Includes Broken Hand Peak, Crestone Needle, and Crestone Peak." Imagine if we had "Mount Crestone" added to this mix? Ugh

Additional confusion comes from Gerry Roach's 14er book where he has KC as "Kit Carson Peak" and further explains... "Kit Carson Mountain is a large, complex massif with two summits above 14,000 feet and another reaching 13,980 feet. The name Kit Carson Mountain applies to all of these summits. The name Kit Carson Peak applies to just the highest, 14,165-foot summit." He then uses "Kit Carson Mountain" in his peak ranking list at the end of his books, as does LOJ.

Click for larger

[fvhayden]

I'm not getting the animosity towards Kit Carson. Sorry, but I'm not going to feel bad about events and individuals that resulted in the creation of the most free and prosperous nation ever known.

[Keno Menechino]

I guess once again it is the locals from Crestone up against the rest of the world on this matter; but that isn't anything new to us, we are used to this treatment from others who don’t understand us. Our town and its people have been made fun of by outsiders for years now, being call “that hippie hellhole” and “the land of anti establishment assholes”, to name just a few rude comments made about our fine town. I'm sure most who are against our town's two proposals here on this forum don't feel this way about us, at least I hope that's the case. But to those who made jokes about this naming issue here, do understand this is a very serious matter to the locals in Crestone. The talk here about hurting our cause, made by those who are in the dark, is disturbing to us.

It is very sad indeed to read all of this misinformation on this forum about the renaming of this mountain by out of town people who don't know the facts. Even Fred Bauder, one of the few locals against this name change, has it down wrong here. So first off, to correct his first mistake, the new name would be “Mount Crestone”, not “Crestone Mountain”. Fred also states: "

The original petition was based on prejudice towards Kit Carson who was a genuine American hero

.” That statement is a total falsehood. I wrote the original proposal (it isn't a petition) to the BGN and most of us locals do not wish to see the name changed because of Kit Carson the man, that had nothing to do with the proposal when it was first written up. Yes, some locals do have a problem with Carson, and some wording to this did make it into the final proposal as only an afterthought, but again, that wasn't and isn't the main reason behind this drive. I even told Fred this, so I'm sad to see him post that falsehood.

The mountain, as the old official Hayden Survey maps showed, was named “Crestone Peak” up until sometime in the 1870s when a new official US map changed this, I believe, by mistake, and switched the names of what was Kit Carson Peak to “Crestone Peak”, and changed Crestone Peak to “Kit Carson Peak”. In 1880 when the town of Crestone was formed, the locals decided to name the town “Crestone”, after the mountain which is the town's main landmark. Nobody in town knew at the time of the mix-up in the name back then, in fact years later, nobody in town even knew the name was officially changed in 1906 by the government. It wasn't until the 1940s, when a school teacher in town informed her students that the name was actually “Kit Carson Peak”. Most of the locals just didn't want to believe this story, but the teacher was correct.

To back up a bit, going by what the Saguache Crescent newspaper wrote on this in 1925, even the members of the Colorado Mountain Club didn’t know at that time the mountain was already named Kit Carson Peak, and when they suggested that the mountain should be renamed “Crestone Peak”, they were met with solid opposition from the locals in Crestone. About 30 year later this came up again, where the locals were told that the government was looking into changing the name of the mountain, and again the locals were solidly against this and sent off a petition to the BGN. But even in the 1950s most everybody in town was still uninformed that the name was already changed 50 years earlier.

In 1969 the government decided to change the name of the mountain from “Kit Carson Peak” to “Kit Carson Mountain”. The BGN had one of their people inform Crestone's then mayor about this. It was only then that the town and most of its residents finally learned that the mountain’s name was definitely not “Crestone Peak”. The BGN's rep must had lied in his report when he stated that the mayor (the late Earl Williams) made a statement to him at that time, that the locals called the mountain “Kit Carson Peak”, as he never said that. The mayor's son, who still lives here in Crestone, notes today “My dad never called it by that name and never would had said that. He only called the mountain 'Crestone Peak', as did all the other locals”. From talking to the other old-timers here in town, all of them agree – 100%, that everybody in town back in 1969 called the mountain “Crestone Peak” (including Fred, who told me his aunt called the mountain by this name). One old timer, Bob King, flat out said to me that: “Words were placed in the mayor’s mouth. He never would have said that! ”

Some of you here talk about the fact that changing the name to “Mount Crestone” would lead to confusion. Please let me address this. The confusion is already here and has been here for well over 100 years. There was a rescue attempt about 20 years ago where rescuers when up the wrong mountain to rescue a person who was reportedly up on “Crestone Peak”, when the person in need was actually on Kit Carson Mountain. The problem was that the local who report this called the mountain “Crestone Peak”. Furthermore on this point, today all of the heads of the local search and rescue teams, along with our sheriff - the very people who are sent up there to save people lost or hurt on the mountain, have all said changing the name of the mountain would cause no problems or confusion for them what-so-ever. After hearing this, the Saguache County Commissioners voted last month to support the name change and go along with the Crestone Town Council, which is the co-proponent of the name change.

It should be noted that the National Forest Service is against both proposals for one reason alone – they don’t want to change their maps. Yet back in 1990 and 2002, they had no problem with changing the names of this same mountain’s second and third highest peaks to Columbia and Challenger Points, when out of towners suggested this. Gee, why was it okay back then? They still had the same issues then with changing the names on maps. But when the majority of locals from Crestone want to rename this mountain, simply to correct a mistake made over 100 years ago - and to end the confusion that has been in effect since, the NFS comes out against it?

It should be noted that when I first wrote up the proposal to re-name the mountain, we were to ask the BGN to simply switch back the two names to what they were originally named back before the mistake was made in the 1870s. But since the official Crestone Peak lies half in Custer County (more than a two hour drive from Crestone), and the locals over there know anything about of any of this, it was suggested by the BGN that we just rename Kit Carson Peak instead, and that doing this would be the easier and faster way to go.

Most of the locals in Crestone simply want the name “Crestone” placed back in the name of the mountain, so “Mount Crestone” was chosen since “Crestone Peak” is already taken. We simply wish to have the mountain’s name go back to being as close to the name it once had and reflect what our town was named after.

As far as Kit Carson the man goes, no question some of the locals in this liberal community don't like having their main landmark named after a person who they see as being a war criminal. I myself am neutral on this. I believe Carson's life was misunderstood by many, to say the least. But again, most of the locals who support the name change, like myself, want it done not because of Kit Carson the man, but because of how the government went about changing the name back in 1906, and then how they lied about this in 1969. Crestone's locals have been shown no respect on this matter at all; not from the BGN, the NFS, or those who live outside our town. Us locals all knew we would be up against solid opposition from anybody who isn't from around here, mainly because of misinformation. From reading this forum, the comments posted here are a perfect example of that. I don't blame anybody who posted incorrect information here, since it wasn't intentional, I only wish they had checked their facts first. As far as Fred goes, I'm not sure why he posted what he did, but I'm sure he didn't mean mal intent towards the town he lives in.

I'll leave all of you with this. Should a local community have a right to ask that their local landmark, which their town was named after years ago, be named as to what they have called it for 130 years? Should they have a say in getting the name changed back to what it once was, after it was changed by mistake on some government map, and after the government years later officially changed its name without even asking the locals how they felt on this matter (as was the case in 1906)? Maybe if it happened to your hometown and you lived with all the confusion involved, you would then agree with most of us who live in Crestone. Crestone is a very peaceful community and different than most other US towns, and us locals are proud of that fact. We only wish to see the name “Crestone” placed back in this mountain's name. I don’t think that is asking too much, and maps have been changed before by our government without anybody being hurt by such actions.

[BillMiddlebrook]

Keno, thanks for posting. It's obvious you have strong feelings on this issue.

The talk here about hurting our cause, made by those who are in the dark, is disturbing to us.

I'm sorry you feel we are "in the dark" but I'd like you to know that many of us understand the issue and have done plenty of research on it. Simply put, we don't all agree with a name change. It will be the responsibility of the BGN to take all of our advice into consideration and (hopefully) make a reasonable decision.

Personally, I think another "Crestone" would cause plenty of confusion and lessen the name. To summarize, we would have Mt. Crestone, Crestone Peak, Crestone Needle and Crestone Peaks (yes, an official GNIS feature). If the other Crestones were named by mistake then the appropriate request might be to right the original wrong and request a renaming of all these peaks. Otherwise, getting Kit Carson renamed to Mountain Crestone seems (to me) like it would be only a partial "fix."

Take care

[mountainrev]

I guess once again it is the locals from Crestone up against the rest of the world on this matter...

I believe Colorado's epic 14ers belong to more than just the communities that are closest to them. In a very real sense, they belong to all of us (which is why many get upset over the private ownership and closed access to peaks like Culebra). Thus, IMHO, it's a bit presumptuous for a small community like Crestone to feel that they are the only ones enlightened enough to name these peaks.

[Jim Davies]

You know, you probably can't even see "Serenity Peak" from the town of Crestone. Challenger Point pretty much covers up everything behind it, doesn't it? Bill's picture:


If local names were the main factor in naming, we'd still have a bunch of Baldy's everywhere (for example, Lindsey and Colorado Springs 12er Almagre Mountain). Local names can be pretty short-sighted, IMO. The current "Crestone Peaks" range looks more like its namesake than Kit Carson does. Locals in the town might think they invented the name "Crestone" for the range, but I'd bet its origin goes back to the Spanish occupation in the San Luis Valley (i.e. Alamosa).

According to "Fourteen Thousand Feet" (1925 CMC pamphlet), there's evidence that the 1874 Hayden expedition (which mislabelled KC as "Crestone Peak") didn't even visit this area, which also accounts for their mislabelling of Humboldt as "Kit Carson". Kit Carson (the person) has some history in the area; he was commander of Fort Garland late in his military career.

[RobertPetrowsky]

Has anyone here looked into whether the name Crestone was actually applied to the highest point of the area by the surveys? It seems more likely to me than any story I have heard on here yet. Crestone is extremely prominent from most view points until you are in town and a map will show that it is still the prominent landmark above the town whether you can see it from the foot of the mountain or not. Perhaps we can petition to change the name of the town and make everyone happy.

[Jim Davies]

Sounds like a good solution. Since there's already a town named Kit Carson, they'll have to go for Frustum or maybe Challenger for their town name. Might as well make everybody as unhappy as possible.

[Fred_Bauder]

I'll leave all of you with this. Should a local community have a right to ask that their local landmark, which their town was named after years ago, be named as to what they have called it for 130 years? Should they have a say in getting the name changed back to what it once was, after it was changed by mistake on some government map, and after the government years later officially changed its name without even asking the locals how they felt on this matter (as was the case in 1906)? Maybe if it happened to your hometown and you lived with all the confusion involved, you would then agree with most of us who live in Crestone. Crestone is a very peaceful community and different than most other US towns, and us locals are proud of that fact. We only wish to see the name “Crestone” placed back in this mountain's name. I don’t think that is asking too much, and maps have been changed before by our government without anybody being hurt by such actions.

According to John L. Jerome Hart's "Fourteen Thousand Feet: A History of the Naming and Early Ascents of the High Colorado Peaks (2nd Edition, Colorado Mountain Club 1931), who when he visited Crestone before 1931 interviewed my grandfather. F.J. Tooker and others:

(2) The present Kit Carson (B) consists of a long summit, a pointed summit, and a round summit (each about 14,000 feet), and was called Three Tetons and Trois Tetons on the maps of the Surveys made by the Land Office, 1853 and 1892, maps accurate enough to show clearly which peaks are named. (A is Crestone Peak, C is Humboldt, D is the Needle)

...the present Kit Carson (B), which overshadows the town, was called Crestone by the inhabitants, in place of the the present Crestone (A), of which only the summit can be seen from the town. The present Kit Carson (B) is called Crestone in an official source, instead of Three Tetons, only in one place--by the Land Office Survey of 1892, in the field notes, probably a mistake based upon local usage as the map of this survey used the name "Three Tetons." On Land Office maps of 1899, based on the survey of 1863, the present Kit Carson (B) is called Trois Tetons (map in the possession of Mr. B.A. Roloson), and the present Crestone (A) is called Crestone (map in the possession of Mr. Tooker).

The present Crestone (A) has been called Crestone fairly consistently, [four sources are cited] with the exception of the name Three Tetons (Wheeler, 1877-1879), Spannish Craggs and N.W. Spannish Craggs (Land Office, 1892, and local use), and Crestone Needles and the Needles (use locally and on both sides of the range)

The present Kit Carson (B), although showing the use of the name Three Tetons and being incorrectly called Crestone, has also had the appropriate descriptive names "Haystack Baldy" (Mr. Roberts) and "Frustum" (Wheeler Survey, 1877 and 1879). There can be no doubt as to the peak (B) designated Frustrum on the Wheeler maps, as it is shown just south of Willow Creek. The name of Frustrum was ruled against by the United States Geographic Board in favor of Kit Carson. This name must have been taken from the Hayden Atlas, where "Kit Carson's Peak" is shown between the present Humboldt (C) and Kit Carson (B).

Crestone was founded in 1880 and if called after the peak would have been called Teton, and, indeed, there is a Teton Cemetery. The man who established the town, George Adams, lived on Crestone Creek on the Baca Grant ranch in full view of both peaks. The origin of the name is lost, but personally i believe it was based on Crestonia, a district in Macedonia https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... /Crestonia" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; where reportedly gold was found.

[Doug Shaw]

But to those who made jokes about this naming issue here, do understand this is a very serious matter to the locals in Crestone.

it was changed by mistake on some government map, and after the government years later officially changed its name without even asking the locals how they felt on this matter (as was the case in 1906)?

Well, your post may just result in a huge influx of people moving into Crestone. You've pretty much convinced me to buy! If a 104-year old cartographical mistake is what qualifies as a "very serious matter" then it must be a pretty sweet life you guys have...

The good news is that if you can keep your grudge for another 14 or so year you guys can outlast the Hatfields and the McCoys. Unfortunately it's going to be quite a while before you can overtake the Jews and the Palestinians...

But seriously, if you've been calling it Mount Crestone for 130 years despite it being officially named something else for 104 of those years... keep calling it Mount Crestone and stop looking for a battle to fight. Enjoy the fact that you're living in such an awesome area and go on about your lives without the added and contrived stress of worrying about what other people call it.