Petition to rename Kit Carson

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Do you agree that Kit Carson should be renamed Mount Crestone?

Yes - rename it!
17
6%
No - do not rename it!
264
94%
 
Total votes: 281
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Tornadoman
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Re: Petition to rename Kit Carson

Post by Tornadoman »

susanjoypaul wrote:
Keno Menechino wrote: Too bad none of you who post here feel our pain with the mountain being called by the wrong name for 100 plus years, and clearly, none of you understand the long running confusion caused by this problem. Like I already said, it's Crestone up against the entire world once again.
River wrote:This is a thinly-veiled, baited referendum on the people who live around Crestone.
You two sure have an inflated view of your little hamlet. Guess what? People have lives. They have no time for, or interest in, concocting a "referendum on the people of Crestone." Seriously... 99.99% of "the entire world" (that you are apparently "up against") has never even heard of Crestone - indeed, most can't even find the state of Colorado on a map. Of the other .01% - well, the only reason we know you exist is because you have our mountain, Colorado 14er "Kit Carson," in your back yard. That's pretty much where the interest in your town begins, and ends. So no, there's no conspiracy. Get over yourselves.
River wrote:We're not all the same, but knowing what the "outdoorsmen" of Colorado think of us might affect our inclination towards hospitality.
I don't know about all the other "outdoorsmen" on this site, but this statement sure has *me* shakin' in my boots! Really, a decreased inclination towards hospitality? The last time I stayed in Crestone I knocked on the door of every single motel in town - and they *all* had vacancy signs - and couldn't even get anyone to answer the door. So I did what I always do when I visit Kit Carson (that's that big peak in your back yard, the one that's been revered, climbed, and known as "Kit Carson" by hundreds of thousands of mountaineers for decades): I found a nice camping spot, made my own dinner, and slept outside under the stars. Didn't even look for a restaurant on the way out of town the next day... why bother? A more truthful statement might be: "Knowing what *the people of Crestone think of the people who visit their town* might affect *our* inclination toward spending a dime in your very inhospitable village."

Really, you guys are your own worst enemies in this cause. Every time you open your mouths gibberish falls out.
+1.... Awesome post! =D>
Climb the mountain so you can see the world, not so the world can see you.
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Zambo
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Re: Petition to rename Kit Carson

Post by Zambo »

Haha, nice Susan. Very well said. Crestone = roasted.

I suggest the kindly residents of the town spend some time in their spiritual centers meditating on the following quote:

"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt."
-Abraham Lincoln
"Human beings climb at their peril. Some might think that by climbing a great mountain they have somehow conquered it, but we can be only visitors here."
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Re: Petition to rename Kit Carson

Post by MUni Rider »

Keno Menechino wrote:I guess once again it is the locals from Crestone up against the rest of the world on this matter.....

.....too bad none of you who post here feel our pain with the mountain being called by the wrong name for 100 plus years, and clearly, none of you understand the long running confusion caused by this problem.....

.....The confusion is already here and has been here for well over 100 years.....

.....he government went about changing the name back in 1906.....



I didn't really care one way or the other about the name. It's still the same hill under my feet either way this goes. However, after lurking this thread for the past week, I've made my decision. (drum roll.............)

keep the name the way it is. Kit Carson.

I mean come on! Dramatize much? The "pain" it has caused? #-o Give me a break! If the biggest problem in your world is the name of a rock in your backyard, then you must lead a very charmed life. You can just feel free to call it Crestone or anything else your little heart desires while putzing about the town. How does having the mountain referred to as Kit Carson by everyone else really affect you? Almost as much as a a 3rd grader calling another 3rd grader a poopy-head. :roll:

Changing a name of Kit Carson, as it has been known for over 100 years will be the cause of more confusion than anything else, especially since there are already peaks named Crestone in the immediate area.

I fully expect to see a corespondent with the Colbert Report or The Daily Show with Jon Stewart do a story on the town of Crestone very very soon. Seriously. It would not suprise me at all! :lol: This has been on the home page of Colorado Gazette.com and who knows where else, so the story is spreading. I hope to see you on Comedy Central soon.
"It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by the dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worthy course; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly; so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat." (Theodore Roosevelt)

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Re: Petition to rename Kit Carson

Post by kenike »

ClimbandMine wrote:
River wrote:You can't "rename" it Crestone - that's its name. Ask the LEOs, EMTs, firefighters, people who maintain the trails, and help hikers and climbers in need (which includes me). You could correct the maps, I suppose. Now there's a novel idea.

This is a thinly-veiled, baited referendum on the people who live around Crestone. We're not all the same, but knowing what the "outdoorsmen" of Colorado think of us might affect our inclination towards hospitality.

All is not as it appears to the pre-conditioned short-term visitor. We have our share of Fox News watchers, Glenn Beck supporters, ditch-diggers, mountain climbers, and atheists. They all call it "Crestone", 'cause that's what it looks like - and that's its name.

So, question - what did the Ute and Comanche Indians call the peak before *you* took the area from them? If we are going to rename s*** back to the "original" names, lets go back to the original names.
Exactly! I mean, would you rather see the mountain that Zebulon Pike never set foot on going back to what the Utes call it: Tava? How much confusion would that create?
I'm not a fan of Kit Carson and his heinous actions, but in that time he was revered as a hero. Call your rock what you want, just as people will refer to Denali as such, or they'll call it Mt. Mckinley. It doesn't really matter.
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Re: Petition to rename Kit Carson

Post by kilian »

MUni Rider wrote:I fully expect to see a corespondent with the Colbert Report or The Daily Show with Jon Stewart do a story on the town of Crestone very very soon. Seriously. It would not suprise me at all! This has been on the home page of Colorado Gazette.com and who knows where else, so the story is spreading. I hope to see you on Comedy Central soon.
Hahaha +1.... i could definitely see that, and i would enjoy watching that episode. Is there a suggestion page on their website?
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Re: Petition to rename Kit Carson

Post by uwe »

Keep it as is.

Uwe
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Re: Petition to rename Kit Carson

Post by Upwardlybound »

No change. Leave the name alone.
"He who forms the mountains, creates the wind, and reveals His thoughts to men, He who turns dawn to darkness, and treads the high places of the earth -- the Lord God Almighty is His name." Amos 4:13
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Re: Petition to rename Kit Carson

Post by tmathews »

How about Mt. NASA (ala Challenger and Columbia)?

*ducks and runs* :mrgreen:
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Re: Petition to rename Kit Carson

Post by susanjoypaul »

kilian wrote:
MUni Rider wrote:I fully expect to see a corespondent with the Colbert Report or The Daily Show with Jon Stewart do a story on the town of Crestone very very soon. Seriously. It would not suprise me at all! This has been on the home page of Colorado Gazette.com and who knows where else, so the story is spreading. I hope to see you on Comedy Central soon.
Hahaha +1.... i could definitely see that, and i would enjoy watching that episode. Is there a suggestion page on their website?
I can already picture the graphic: Kit Carson, the man, on a horse, on a mountain. The good people of Crestone, with Keno as their leader, lie far below. They're all looking up at the horse - and straight into his mouth. He has a big red bow tied around him. In case I'm moving too fast for anyone... Google the phrase "looking a gift horse in the mouth."

These folks have one of the prized Colorado 14ers as their centerpiece and they want to change the name. They may want to visit Colorado Springs, home of another prized 14er, Pikes Peak. Also home to Pikes Perk (the coffee shop), Pikes Peak Museum, Pikes Peak Alternative Health & Wellness, Pikes Peak Chocolate, Pikes Peak Gay & Lesbian Community Center, Pike City Motors, and two more pages in the phone book of all things "Pike."

Colorado Springs, where:
  • (a) Tax revenue from tourism accounts for 25% of the City’s annual budget
    (b) Over 4.7 million visitors travel each year and spend close to $1 billion
    (c) Tourism is the 3rd largest employer, providing over 16,000 jobs to residents

And while old Zebulon may not be as notorious as your peak's namesake Kit, he certainly has his blemishes by today's standards, leading troops into battle after bloody battle and accounting for the deaths of many good people with good intentions of protecting their own lands, their own beliefs, and perhaps even using his "explorer" status to cover for a rumored career as a government spy, covertly infiltrating Spanish territory. Hero, or criminal? I don't mean to trivialize *at all* the atrocities of war committed by Kit Carson, but I also don't see how they're any different than any other "war hero." This is true of all war heroes, all war criminals. War is ugly and there's no nice way to go about it. People suffer and die. Other people cause the suffering and the dying. It's unconscionable that in this day and age, with all our technology and wisdom, that we haven't discovered a way around it - killing each other. He, like so many other soldiers of the day, so many soldiers today, was doing his job.

This isn't a political battle - conservatives versus liberals - so I wish the Gazette hadn't used that terminology in their report (although I am happy they gave this story some publicity and perhaps prevented the petition from surreptitiously making its way through to approval).

I want the name left as it is... yet I'm the biggest flaming liberal you'll ever meet, and an atheist to boot! So I don't believe the peak, or the town, is inhabited by God, or gods, or goddesses, fairies or elves, or any other magical, mystical creatures that might be causing a "bad vibe" in the village. And I certainly don't think the name had anything at all to do with any of the accidents up there.

I guess what really irks me about all this is that I have a lot of good memories attached to that peak - we probably all do - and I don't understand how someone can just come along and change the peak I know, the peak where those memories were born, to something else - especially something as lame as "Tranquility Peak." That name means nothing to me. It was thrown out there by a marketing guy who moved into town a few years ago and has no connection at all to that mountain, other than trying to capitalize on a snafu in some documentation from many years ago. And he's somehow convinced the townspeople, and the local government, that this is a good idea. From a marketing standpoint alone, how is this a good idea? And since when did newspaper reporters create news, rather than report it?

My first trip up Kit Carson was difficult. I packed in up to the lake in a downpour and set up camp for the night, and made my summit bid the next day. I met a lot of folks that day - "Aubrey" and "Jen," "Jamies" Nellis and Princo, "ctfbq" (Patrick) and his daughter. I summited in a dense fog... but it was wonderful, and I was so happy to make it first to Challenger, and then on to Kit Carson, one of the peaks I had actually been dreading, due to its dangerous reputation. We got off safely with minor casualties - a few toenails, from what I recall - and packed out. It was a long walk, all the way off that peak, and down that trail, all the way to the bottom of the road. I was exhausted, and moving slowly, till I spotted some mountain lion tracks in the fresh mud - that sure put a spring in my step!

The second time I went up there was for Point 13,541. It was a wonderful scramble of a peak, and there weren't many names on that register - Gerry Roach's was the last entry, and he had been up there a month ago! The views over to Kit Carson were pretty spectacular - we could see people going up the Outward Bound and Kirk Couloirs, even so late in the season, mid-July.

The third time I was after Point 13,580. It was my hiking partner's 100th and final peak in finishing all the ranked peaks in Custer county, so were both pretty excited. We met a few folks on the trail, including "anasarca," "Papillon," and "Wooderson." After getting that peak my partner went on to do another 13er, while I found a big flat rock, and took a nap. It was a good day, sleeping there on that rock, in the sunshine, surrounded by old friends Kit Carson and Challenger, after seeing my buddy make one of his goals.

Really, folks. Don't change the name. You will regret it. That's not a threat, but some good, heartfelt advice from someone who's been in the marketing business for a very long time. And has seen plenty of folks get duped into making dumb decisions due to the influence of a clever but misleading marketing campaign.

Don't change the name. Don't try to bury your history. Don't deny the accomplishments of a man who can be seen as both a war hero and war criminal, depending on whose side you're on.

Don't listen to the words of someone who came to your community eight short years ago, stumbled on an interesting bit of historical trivia, and is trying to make a name for himself off it. Don't close your doors to the thousands of hikers that visit the many 13ers and 14ers on your doorstep every year, and who would appreciate a friendly place to gas up, eat up, and lay their heads for a night or two. Don't send them down the road, to Salida, or Buena Vista, Woodland Park or Florence. And don't... well, you know. I already drew a picture for you.
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Re: Petition to rename Kit Carson

Post by Fred_Bauder »

susanjoypaul wrote:This isn't a political battle - conservatives versus liberals - so I wish the Gazette hadn't used that terminology in their report (although I am happy they gave this story some publicity and perhaps prevented the petition from surreptitiously making its way through to approval).

I want the name left as it is... yet I'm the biggest flaming liberal you'll ever meet, and an atheist to boot! So I don't believe the peak, or the town, is inhabited by God, or gods, or goddesses, fairies or elves, or any other magical, mystical creatures that might be causing a "bad vibe" in the village. And I certainly don't think the name had anything at all to do with any of the accidents up there.
There were a few mistakes in the newspaper article, for one I'm not a lawyer, although I once was, and it is more a spiritual dispute than a political dispute. As to Gods on the peak, there is the matter of Ritrö Gönpo:
http://www.dharmaocean.org/default/inde ... -colorado/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; another renaming of the peak. The deletion "debate" on Wikipedia: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... G%C3%B6npo" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Here: http://web.me.com/abeckham/andrewbeckha ... Gonpo.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; is a rather nice presentation of that notion.

The accidents have been analyzed and are usually to do with going north straight down from the notch where Kit Carson Avenue starts and getting into cliffs and snow rather than going west towards Challenger before descending. I have heard search and rescue is going to put up a warning sign.

Crestone does welcome guests, especially mountain climbers. Despite all the fireworks you'll find a friendly welcome here. And friendly advice on access.
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Re: Petition to rename Kit Carson

Post by highpilgrim »

"Keno Menechino"] I guess once again it is the locals from Crestone up against the rest of the world on this matter...
Maybe you guys in Crestone should develop a nuclear program. If you had atomic weapons you might get some of the peace you deserve. It's worked well for the North Koreans who have been persecuted nearly as much as you.
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Re: Petition to rename Kit Carson

Post by shaunster_co »

I have a subtle feeling that a lot this hype to rename Kit Carson has to do with the person always pulling strings behind the scenes down there, and no doubt in my mind is influenced by those like...oh, Maurice Strong himself. Since the acquisition of CLCC to "Baca", there have been numerous controversial issues and all roads eventually lead to the same source. On the other hand, it isn't the first time that these controversial issues have been beaten back, such as the American Water Development scheme. Some of us remember these things. I'm not going to go in to a lengthy and controversial finger pointing here, but I'm sure anyone would find it both entertaining and disturbing from a simple google search of the aforementioned name.