Drone climber on CPR 10am today

[twhalm]

Nobody yet. I know he's a member here, and I'm sure he's an awesome guy, and this was a fun project to do with a drone, and kudos for not grid-bolting the rock, but that does not negate the fact that they were using a drone as an integral part of getting to the top, which invalidates this as a climbing/mountaineering activity. I have absolutely no problem with doing stuff like this, but calling it a first ascent is just silly. Would you have called it a first ascent if they built a scaffolding to surmount the overhang ? Or hired a helicopter to rappel a foot below the summit ?

This is ridiculous!! I am not sure if you read his trip report or not (you definitely should), but the only help they received from the "drone" was placing a pull cord over the top of the spire. Nothing like "building a scaffold or using a helicopter". His original intention was to use a bow and shoot the cord over, but the accuracy was not there. Of course if he HAD used the bow nobody would have given a s**t. Whats the difference?

My point is he used an awesome piece of tech to help him ascend this spire in a safe way. He did all the ascending under his own power. Technology is always advancing and helping mountaineering reach higher limits.

What you are saying is the equivalent of saying, "Using cams doesn't count towards a first ascent because pitons worked perfectly fine".

Plus, in what other way could a "drone" (a RC copter) possibly help a mountaineer? There really is none. There is nothing to worry about here.

[Dave B]

From one of Eric Bjornstad's desert rock books:

...from which the summit was lassoed. Sadly, someone retro bolted the lasso move in 1997.

In other words, zany clean aid first ascents > bolting

Lasso's, arrows and other contrived methods to reach summits are ubiquitous in mountaineering FAs. Just because it's 2015 and we have sticky rock shoes and climbing gyms doesn't mean these methods need to cease.

And, lol at Brian C's photoshop job.

[Brian C]

Nobody yet.

To me it's simply proof of the general climbing community's ignorance to the actual world of climbing. In general, the number of people who consider themselves climbers has grown exponentially, but I guess that the number of routes that see 95% of traffic would account for less than 5% of what's actually out there. If you climb clipping bolts and popular trade-routes, the notion of obscure ascents like this is simply beyond what is the now "typical" climber's grasp. What about routes that are bolted on rappel before they are climbed from ground up? Would that be a FA? I'm sure that the modern sport climber would say so.

Aid climbing is a simple thing, to ascend using the technology that you have. As gear progress so does the trickery involved, but there are still "trade" routes that involve rope throws, shoulder stands, ice axe lassos and other weird strategies. Adventure is still out there for anybody who cares to look. Ironically, not a single person who is bitching about ethics will hike up to this formation, let alone ever experience a first ascent or true adventure route. It's a coincidence that this happened to gain the public's eye. To Dave, these ascents are not about ego, they are about the adventure and exploring the unknown of what is out there.

[mtsuji]

Aid climbing is a simple thing, to ascend using the technology that you have.

Ahh but it's not this simple. My aid climbing experience is limited, however I have climbed the finger of fate. On that route and many others it is frowned upon to use a cheater stick to reach placements that are out of your reach while using trickery such as girth hitched stoppers is considered fun and sporting. To me, everyone should draw a personal line on the gear and methods that are acceptable.

What's unique about climbing is that it's a very individual sport that allows each climber to develop a unique set of goals and ethics. My partner hurt his shoulder on the first pitch of the finger and subsequently jugged the entire Titan. While he has certainly been on top of it he will be the first to tell you he did not climb it.

The use of a drone to climb something is definitely unique and took creativity and determination. I would personally never do that but it doesn't take anything away from the ascent. The party never tried to hide anything they did and it doesn't seem like they're looking for much except to share their experience with everyone else. In my humble (and fairly worthless) internet opinion, as long as you're having fun and not ruining anyone else's day it's a good day climbing.

[Scott P]

Would you have called it a first ascent if they built a scaffolding to surmount the overhang ?

Only if me or one of my friends did it. Furthermore, body weight should be taken in account. Climbing a 5.7 with 22% body fat is way harder than climbing a 5.14 with 3% body fat. In the spirit of the Americans with Disabilities Act, fat folks like me should be able to claim first ascents using scaffolding.

PS, jomagam, you should climb this:

http://www.summitpost.org/cowboy-hat-tower/155201" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[jomagam]

Nobody yet. I know he's a member here, and I'm sure he's an awesome guy, and this was a fun project to do with a drone, and kudos for not grid-bolting the rock, but that does not negate the fact that they were using a drone as an integral part of getting to the top, which invalidates this as a climbing/mountaineering activity. I have absolutely no problem with doing stuff like this, but calling it a first ascent is just silly. Would you have called it a first ascent if they built a scaffolding to surmount the overhang ? Or hired a helicopter to rappel a foot below the summit ?

This is ridiculous!! I am not sure if you read his trip report or not (you definitely should), but the only help they received from the "drone" was placing a pull cord over the top of the spire. Nothing like "building a scaffold or using a helicopter". His original intention was to use a bow and shoot the cord over, but the accuracy was not there. Of course if he HAD used the bow nobody would have given a s**t. Whats the difference?

My point is he used an awesome piece of tech to help him ascend this spire in a safe way. He did all the ascending under his own power. Technology is always advancing and helping mountaineering reach higher limits.

What you are saying is the equivalent of saying, "Using cams doesn't count towards a first ascent because pitons worked perfectly fine".

Plus, in what other way could a "drone" (a RC copter) possibly help a mountaineer? There really is none. There is nothing to worry about here.

No Sir, *you* are ridiculous That "only help" was a pretty important one without which he would not have stood on top. I agree that FA != FFA. But FA is also not the same as "stand on top by any means necessary". You have to use practices that are accepted methods in climbing. You would be correct if drones became standard climbing equipment, like cams. I bet you any amount of money that it won't be the case.

I did read the trip report. Not sure if you noticed that this was Kastan's first time with a jumar. How likely is it that Colorado's hardest peak was first ascended aid style by somebody who has never used a jumar before ? Makes it seem like the role of the drone was pretty major.

[lpeabbles]

Yeah I don't know, what are "acceptable methods of climbing"? Who decides those? I'm sure the climbing heroes of ol' would laugh at most climbers these days with all their fancy-schmancy equipment, still calling themselves "climbers". I don't think the did anything wrong here. In fact, I KNOW they didn't do anything "wrong" here. They utilized a tool. That's what humans do. As for "cheating" or "counting", who cares. It's not that big of a deal.

I think the only way I could possibly be upset about this is if they had damaged it in some way, which they didn't. Case closed.

[jomagam]

Yeah I don't know, what are "acceptable methods of climbing"? Who decides those? I'm sure the climbing heroes of ol' would laugh at most climbers these days with all their fancy-schmancy equipment, still calling themselves "climbers". I don't think the did anything wrong here. In fact, I KNOW they didn't do anything "wrong" here. They utilized a tool. That's what humans do. As for "cheating" or "counting", who cares. It's not that big of a deal.

I think the only way I could possibly be upset about this is if they had damaged it in some way, which they didn't. Case closed.

Go to Bent Gate and ask what drone they recommend for a beginner rack. If they look at you funny, then a drone might not be a climbing equipment. They didn't do anything wrong at all, I said before that this was a cool project that I would've participated in. But I'd never claim that it was a first ascent, or what I did was climbing.

[Dave B]

^^^ They'd probably look at your funny if you asked for RURPs for you starter rack as well.

Boutique items don't mean they ain't useful.

[Somewhat of a Prick]

Yeah I don't know, what are "acceptable methods of climbing"? Who decides those? I'm sure the climbing heroes of ol' would laugh at most climbers these days with all their fancy-schmancy equipment, still calling themselves "climbers". I don't think the did anything wrong here. In fact, I KNOW they didn't do anything "wrong" here. They utilized a tool. That's what humans do. As for "cheating" or "counting", who cares. It's not that big of a deal.

I think the only way I could possibly be upset about this is if they had damaged it in some way, which they didn't. Case closed.

Go to Bent Gate and ask what drone they recommend for a beginner rack. If they look at you funny, then a drone might not be a climbing equipment. They didn't do anything wrong at all, I said before that this was a cool project that I would've participated in. But I'd never claim that it was a first ascent, or what I did was climbing.

Any DJI Phantom should do the trick. PM me for fee to rent mine.

[mtsuji]

^^^ They'd probably look at your funny if you asked for RURPs for you starter rack as well.

Boutique items don't mean they ain't useful.

The difference is if you're putting in RURPs you definitely have some skin in the game.

[Dave B]

The difference is if you're putting in RURPs you definitely have some skin in the game.

Fair enough. That may not have been the most appropriate comparison.

Nevertheless, the fear that this one single FA is going to usher in some new era of "drone assisted" climbing is absurd. Lassoing and other tactics have been used for years. If the FA party had used a bow and arrow, no one would have cared. Some how using technology caught peoples attention and even worse brought up the slippery-slope fallacy.