The Decalibron 14ers Are Closing Again

Information on current and past 14er closures, usually due to private property issues.
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two lunches
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Re: The Decalibron 14ers Are Closing Again

Post by two lunches »

HikesInGeologicTime wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 12:47 pm
GuiGirard wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 10:14 am Curious of what's the impact of a letter to a State Senator from someone who is NOT a resident of that state (me)... does their aide put it straight to the trash folder without reading it?
Pretty much, yes. But don’t worry, they also mark it as “Read” and move onto more important things like the latest Reddit drama after getting emails from residents as well. :roll:

But to reiterate an idea I raised earlier in the thread that might actually get the attention of the senators and others who might be able to put pressure on them: Denver is currently in the thick of a general city election. I’m not entirely sure who or what is on the ballot, as I’m no longer there full time (which doesn’t prevent me from getting a bunch of aggravating campaign texts, but that’s neither here nor there), but there’s a possibility that one or more if the senators in question will be speaking at various events to stump for their pet issues…which would be a great opportunity for someone who is in/near Denver on a more regular basis and has the availability to ask them in front of an audience about why they rejected the bill, why they want to close off access to previously accessible terrain by refusing to move the bill forward, etc.

Of course they could (and probably would) deflect, but it might get the attention of some local journalists and/or the voters who care enough to take part in a citywide election, who are also the voters I’d suspect are most likely to care about re-electing (or not) those state senators.
hey geo- i floated this idea to someone active in denver governmental affairs and i don't want to say it was "shot down" but i will say i agree with them when they said the new city council and mayor will have their hands full with denver-specific issues (if you've been downtown post-pandemic, i don't need to go into great detail here). we are dealing with a bevvy of issues surrounding homelessness/crime/drug use, housing, education... while it might not hurt to reach out to them, i'm under the impression that their opinions don't carry a ton of weight at a state-level. the local governments of the communities of these specific mountains (alma, fairplay, etc) state representatives and senators would be able to influence the greatest amount of change.
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Re: The Decalibron 14ers Are Closing Again

Post by Bigperm »

two lunches wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 10:37 am
Ptglhs wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 6:59 am How do they plan to enforce this? Kite lake campground is public. A good bit of the trail is also public. The private areas are high in the alpine. Are they just planning on putting no trespassing signs or actually employing the culebra Gestapo with drones, guns, and ATVs to threaten and kidnap trespassers?
interestingly enough, Perry, not all of Kite Lake Campground is public- Earth Energy Resources owns almost all of the southern portion of the lake, as well as part of the road to access the campground (and likely some of the camping spots). i've never used the Private Lands layer in Gaia before but that whole area is a jumbled mess of private property- some mining, some US-owned, some Alma-owned, some corporations, and a few independent families. if nothing else it would be nice if JUST the trail/ridgelines were made public. we're talking about a few linear miles of public access and maybe several yards of grace on either side... seems like a small ask when you look at the area as a whole

@Fisching- thank you for posting the draft e-mail. i sent mine and very much hope others do the same. if there's anything anyone else can think of to help sort out these issues, i'm happy to contribute my time and money to sharing the outdoors with people who will respect it
You'd be better off buying off politicians than trying to buy property.
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Re: The Decalibron 14ers Are Closing Again

Post by Scott P »

two lunches wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 10:37 aminterestingly enough, Perry, not all of Kite Lake Campground is public- Earth Energy Resources owns almost all of the southern portion of the lake, as well as part of the road to access the campground (and likely some of the camping spots).
No. At Kite Lake, private land touches the south end of the lake and that is it. The campground is 100% public. Some people park on the private land. They don't own the access road either. It's a public road maintained by taxpayer funds.
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Re: The Decalibron 14ers Are Closing Again

Post by sigepnader »

This is a dumb question but are the 13ers by Kite closed as well?
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Re: The Decalibron 14ers Are Closing Again

Post by two lunches »

Scott P wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 12:59 pm
two lunches wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 10:37 aminterestingly enough, Perry, not all of Kite Lake Campground is public- Earth Energy Resources owns almost all of the southern portion of the lake, as well as part of the road to access the campground (and likely some of the camping spots).
No. At Kite Lake, private land touches the south end of the lake and that is it. The campground is 100% public. Some people park on the private land. They don't own the access road either. It's a public road maintained by taxpayer funds.

kite.PNG
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Re: The Decalibron 14ers Are Closing Again

Post by Scott P »

two lunches wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 2:12 pmGaia shows something different
Gaia isn't the only source to show the boundary there. Some other outdoor maps show what Gaia shows (even the map on the trailhead), but Park County, Forest Service, and realty maps all match the USGS map at this location.

I'm not sure why there is a discrepancy, but the county assessor, forest service, and reality maps should be used in most cases over the outdoor sites. The USGS maps though are sometimes out of date (as in the case with Cameron).

I guess it is possible that the County, Forest Service, USGS, and Realty Maps all share the same error, but this does seem less likely than the outdoor maps having an error, especially since property taxes would be based off what the County has.

It would be interesting though to find out why Gaia and some outdoor maps show the boundary at a different place around Kite Lake. It definitely doesn't match the County, Forest Service, Realty, and USGS maps.

If it did become an issue, it would be worth digging into.
Last edited by Scott P on Sat Mar 11, 2023 10:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Decalibron 14ers Are Closing Again

Post by daway8 »

Just for grins I emailed each of the three reps identified earlier in this thread using a slightly modified version of the form letter someone suggested. Sent them out on March 5, finally got one response today from Julie Gonzales, even though I'm not in her district. For anyone curious, here was the obviously form letter reply:

"Thank you so much for reaching out to me in regards to SB23-103 which changes the Colorado Recreational Use Statute. I understand how important this topic is to our community and I appreciate hearing from you.

When it comes to public access to Colorado’s outdoor lands, I agree that we should continue to explore ways to maintain outdoor recreational opportunities for all Coloradans. The Colorado Recreational Use Statute as it stands continues to be an effective method for allowing public recreational access on privately owned lands. In 25 years, there has only been one case successfully litigated under the existing Colorado Recreational Use Statute, which illustrates that liability protections for landowners who allow public access to their lands is and continues to remain incredibly strong.

I invite you to read Nelson v. United States, the only case successfully litigated under the Colorado Recreational Use Statute. The Air Force Academy demonstrated gross negligence by knowing that a closed bike path on their property was being used by the public, and declining to take steps to end that use. Because the Air Force Academy indirectly permitted Mr. Nelson’s use of the bike path, they were found liable because they neglected to properly maintain the path and failed to warn users of the risk. The Nelson case is the single rare exception where a landowner was held liable. In reality, it is difficult to hold landowners liable under the existing statute, which shows that the Colorado Recreational Use Statute works at protecting landowners in its current form and has enabled countless Coloradans to recreate in and enjoy the outdoor opportunities that Colorado has to offer. For that reason, I voted no on SB23-103.

Thank you again for taking the time to reach out to me about this issue. I am committed as your state Senator to continue listening to your suggestions and concerns to ensure that we are addressing the specific benefits or pitfalls of any proposed policy. Please do not hesitate to reach out should you have any additional questions or concerns."
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Re: The Decalibron 14ers Are Closing Again

Post by swetnesss »

Sorry if this was already discussed but I haven’t read thru the 13 pages, but is the Dolly Varden Gully access included in this?
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Re: The Decalibron 14ers Are Closing Again

Post by ekalina »

Even for a form letter, that's a weak response. It doesn't address the actual problem. It doesn't matter how strong the CRUS protections are; it matters that landowners think they're not strong enough, so they're closing off access.

I guess I'm expecting too much for the response to say, "We wanted to help, but we need campaign donations from the lawyers, so yeah, we're not changing it."

I would write back anyway and ask why, if the CRUS protections are so strong, are four of the 14ers closed to public access due to landowner liability concerns?
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Re: The Decalibron 14ers Are Closing Again

Post by Chicago Transplant »

Thanks for sharing the response, hopefully future letter writers take her comments and directly challenge them. She asked to ensure she's addressing benefits and pitfalls and clearly the current CRUS has pitfalls that have closed nearly 10% of our 14ers.
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Re: The Decalibron 14ers Are Closing Again

Post by madmattd »

It seems that all those opposed to the proposed bill - basically just lawyers/law-adjacent folks - are using the argument that there's only been one successful suit in 25 years, thus the law as it exists is working and there isn't an increased likelihood of more lawsuits.

I think these lawyers/legal types need to go back to school and (re)learn what the word "precedent" means for potential future legal cases.

Oh, wait, the trial lawyers are well aware of that.
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Re: The Decalibron 14ers Are Closing Again

Post by headsizeburrito »

ekalina wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 7:25 pm Even for a form letter, that's a weak response. It doesn't address the actual problem. It doesn't matter how strong the CRUS protections are; it matters that landowners think they're not strong enough, so they're closing off access.

I guess I'm expecting too much for the response to say, "We wanted to help, but we need campaign donations from the lawyers, so yeah, we're not changing it."

I would write back anyway and ask why, if the CRUS protections are so strong, are four of the 14ers closed to public access due to landowner liability concerns?
Yep, this is one of the things that is so frustrating about it. It's the only argument they can make, and it's clearly in bad faith because it ignores what is actually happening on the ground.

33-41-101. Legislative declaration.
The purpose of this article is to encourage owners of land to make land and water areas available for recreational purposes by limiting their liability toward persons entering thereon for such purposes.
CRUS is failing to live up to the intent of the law as the closures show. The solution is to revise CRUS. You can do so in a way that increases liability protection for landowners and satisfies the property insurance companies without just giving them a blank check from all responsibility. And the lawyers won't even starve!