Little Bear West Ridge Indirect evaluation

[Veory]

I'm not denying that using more techniques allows more terrain to be traversed safely. To repeat myself, I don't see how or why that shift would happen.

I don't think that most people will use a rope on little bear, but that doesn't mean that any particular person shouldn't, we can make that information available without "enforcing" it on the majority

[Boggy B]

I'm not sure how anyone would get the idea this kind of terrain is "safe" nor maintain such illusions very far into the route.

It may be the uncomfortable reality that a climber weighted a rock that's been weighted a hundred times and it broke off.

Develop skills, gain experience, be vigilant, those things increase safety.

But take away that "climber fell when rock broke loose" could happen to you regardless of contributing factors in any one case. Across a variety of hazardous pursuits, it appears to me skilled/experienced folks die at least as often as beginners.

And for the love of hillwalking don't rope up on loose rock if there's any chance people are below you.

[seannunn]

I'm not sure how anyone would get the idea this kind of terrain is "safe" nor maintain such illusions very far into the route.

It may be the uncomfortable reality that a climber weighted a rock that's been weighted a hundred times and it broke off.

Develop skills, gain experience, be vigilant, those things increase safety.

But take away that "climber fell when rock broke loose" could happen to you regardless of contributing factors in any one case. Across a variety of hazardous pursuits, it appears to me skilled/experienced folks die at least as often as beginners.

And for the love of hillwalking don't rope up on loose rock if there's any chance people are below you.

I don't necessarily disagree with you.
However, testing holds carefully before weighting them decreases the risk of a fall if a hold breaks free. Not entirely though, as you say.

As for experienced climbers meeting tragedy as often as newbies, you have to take into account that someone who has been climbing many years may have done hundreds of climbs, while a newbie (by definition) has only done a few.
A person's likelihood of experiencing a tragedy in the mountains is of course proportional to the amount of times spent in the mountains, regardless of how careful they are.
(I am reminded of the occasional news story: Runner Dies In Marathon Race. Well, yes, hundreds of thousands of people complete one or more marathons every year, so it makes sense that at least one of them would have their number come up during a race, just by probability. The news story: Man Has Heart Attack Watching TV seems to never make the 5 o'clock lead).
Someone who only climbs a few times in their life is very unlikely to die in the mountains, provided they use common sense and safe practices and don't attempt things way beyond their abilities.
Someone who climbs hundreds or thousands of times is more likely to have something bad happen no matter how careful they are (witness Gerry Roach 2-3 years ago).

Sean Nunn
Peculiar, MO

[seannunn]

I am by no means an expert, but I did just climb west ridge indirect. Other than the crux, I don't see any practical and safe way to use a rope to protect the ridgeline. Honestly most of it isn't much worse than walking on a badly broken narrow sidewalk, albeit one that falls off 1000' of each side. There are a few places that are "spicier", but not terribly many. Overall it is wider than the knife edge on Capitol, although the knife edge is flat whilst the west ridge does go up and down. Overall WALKING across either would seem to be about the same to me, the difference being that it would not be practical to "butt scoot" on WRI like you can on the knife edge. The major caveat is that the crux move(s) on WRI is much more difficult than anything I have ever had to do anywhere else in order to reach a 14er summit by the easiest route. (Difficulty here taking into account the extreme exposure involved.)

Sean Nunn
Peculiar, MO

[Boggy B]

I have to contest the implicit presumption that such accident might have been avoided if only ..
<they were testing holds carefully before weighting them>

I've had two partners ride microwave-sized boulders off mountains, one hit a ledge 30 ft down and was somehow barely injured, the other was following on a rope and got really lucky a bunch of fatal probabilities didn't occur. In both cases the force required to test the rock for stability caused its egress and their near-death experience.

Thus I maintain yanking on rocks you think might be loose is of little utility outside a learning exercise in a reasonably controlled environment, and in most other contexts--especially a long scramble known for loose rock with other routes below--is at best a waste of time and at worst endangers yourself and others.

[Monster5]

For clarity as this seems to be another divisive point, a prudent short alpine belay for 1-2 moves is reasonable. A long 30m+ traversing pitch or simul is not.

Also, your partners sound like noobs.

... don't rope up on loose rock if there's any chance people are below you.

[seannunn]

I have to contest the implicit presumption that such accident might have been avoided if only ..
<they were testing holds carefully before weighting them>

I've had two partners ride microwave-sized boulders off mountains, one hit a ledge 30 ft down and was somehow barely injured, the other was following on a rope and got really lucky a bunch of fatal probabilities didn't occur. In both cases the force required to test the rock for stability caused its egress and their near-death experience.

Thus I maintain yanking on rocks you think might be loose is of little utility outside a learning exercise in a reasonably controlled environment, and in most other contexts--especially a long scramble known for loose rock with other routes below--is at best a waste of time and at worst endangers yourself and others.

I am sorry, I didn't mean to imply that an accident might have been prevented if only...

Sean Nunn
Peculiar, MO