What's the best type of training?

[ker0uac]

ive since loaned the book out but i dont recall anything mentioned as "low effort" - rather not doing a ton of anaerobic exercise

Zone 1: Basic Endurance (55–75 percent of max HR)

That might not be the technical term. Low effort would be zone 1 HR or lighter weights. High effort would be max HR or heavy weights. Low duration would be sprints or 6reps. High duration would be hours long cardio or 12 reps. Now mix and match, and you have 4 diff combinations. Every regimen boils down to planning how to devote time to those combos and to what muscles.

[mtree]

Other than fake it until you make it.
You can't climb peaks every day so how do you guys train for the mountains?

I'm fat so no I don't climb very often. I like to learn about mountains though.

I'll be blunt. This isn't rocket science. Get off your fat a$$ and go for a walk every day. Walk some hills and increase your pace as you can.

That's pretty much it spot on!
Running helps, too. It works more muscle groups more intensely. And don't forget your core. Hiking with a pack over 15 lbs should do the trick. Its really that simple.

[justiner]

Yes, I'm very familiar with TFTNA and the endurance training they recommend is pretty much what you'd find in any sensible marathon training plan. The strength training part I've found very helpful for trail running, especially the muscular endurance part. Which is why I was curious to know what was controversial about that when really there's nothing ground breaking about the book, mostly it's tried and true methods exposed to an audience not used to a structured training regimen. Thanks for your reply.

Yup. The whole book can be summarized as there is no shortcut, you gotta do the work . They even basically reprint Mark Twights post on a CrossFit forum on how CrossFit wasn’t a shortcut to achieve a ski mountaineering race goal. The fitness he brought to the race was from years of working in an aerobic base. The Tony Yainaro story was about how dumb rucking for training was. It goes on and on. But things like hyper gravity training for climbing hard things does work; the book tries to explain how this doesn’t for endurance. The exercises fir your lower body in tftna is sensible, but again it’s not about pr’ing the move, it’s just working on weaknesses.

Anyways, run! Not too fast, mostly up hills. Western States was won on a 50 mpw training program.

[TomPierce]

OP:

I'll offer up a few training "rules" that I've learned over a few decades of seeing exercise fads come & go:

-Do what you love, or at least what you like: Yep, the best training for hiking well uphill is, uh...hiking uphill! But maybe it's a hassle getting to a good hill, maybe the trails are usually super muddy this time of the year where you are. Or equally likely: Maybe you want to get in good hiking shape, but doing it x3/week would move hiking from fun to drudgery. Fair enough. Do what you love, otherwise you won't stick with it. Fwiw, I think running is probably the best exercise for hiking (other than hiking, of course), but these days for me it's just, eh...OK. I don't look forward to it. But cycling! Way more of a passion for me, I always want to go for a ride. Not ideal for hiking training, but it's what I like to do. Which leads to:

-Consistency is king: Better to do something that's OK, but more consistently, than to skip the perfect exercise. If you love it, you'll be more consistent. Some exercise is always better than no exercise.

-KISS: Keep it simple...I chuckle when I see these super elaborate, extended high intensity workouts online or in magazines. Oy. Sure, some may stick with it, but I'd bet on a LOT of defections & injuries. As others have said here, build a base (baby steps!), that'll take a few months. Only then build in some strength work, then after a month+ of that, some intensity. Maybe a few simple intervals? So maybe a sutainable goal of 3 aerobic workouts a week, paired with a couple of strength workouts? That's pretty much what I do. For me it's not psycho intense, but nothing wrong with a sustainable workout vs. a "perfect" workout that has a shelf life of only a few months.

-And finally, yep the journey of a thousand miles....you know the rest. Gotta get out there, off the couch. Baby steps. If you get injured, heal, then get back to it. My .02.

-Tom

PS: And not sure what Yaniro's beef was with rucking, but I think it's great. Want to get in good backpacking shape? Hike with a weighted backpack! Duh. That's rucking. I did a full rucking marathon in 85 degree heat down in NM, a real challenge, had a great time. Once my feet healed.

[Jorts]

I did a full rucking marathon in 85 degree heat down in NM, a real challenge, had a great time. Once my feet healed.

Was that Bataan? I always wondered about that one.

[TomPierce]

I did a full rucking marathon in 85 degree heat down in NM, a real challenge, had a great time. Once my feet healed.

Was that Bataan? I always wondered about that one.

Yeah, Bataan. I did reasonably well, beat the average military time in all categories (but those guys are going it in BDU's and combat boots, so I can't crow too much about that ). But a super cool event. I was in the solo "civilian heavy" category (35lb pack), way different vibe than the usual marathon. I'd do it gain, probably will one of these years, but it obviously requires some specialized training and I'm now more focused on some cycling goals.

If you ever think about doing it, Jorts, drop me a PM and I can give you some lessons learned.

-Tom

[ker0uac]

I also don't see the problem with rucking itself. I could see a criticism of rucking training for sports that don't require spinal loading like rock climbing or trail running. Or I could see criticism when rucking compromises your duration. It's hard to sustain high effort exercise for very long, so if you are constantly rucking, you won't be able to push the boundaries of your cardio endurance.

[SchralpTheGnar]

Run, bike, swim, weights, yoga, stretching.

I try to do something everyday, ranging from 10 minutes of yoga or stretching to 2-3 hour mountain run/jogs. Setting weekly minimum goals helps keep me motivated as does a maximum weight that I don’t let myself exceed, for me this is mostly diet related, but the exercise helps too.

[TomPierce]

I also don't see the problem with rucking itself. I could see a criticism of rucking training for sports that don't require spinal loading like rock climbing or trail running. Or I could see criticism when rucking compromises your duration. It's hard to sustain high effort exercise for very long, so if you are constantly rucking, you won't be able to push the boundaries of your cardio endurance.

For sure it's not a great VO2 max sort of exercise, unless you can run uphill with a weighted pack! Fwiw, the guys who were winning their categories were averaging impressive times, jogging/running several miles with their packs. I think the fastest I managed in training was a 13:00 min/mile pace, but I didn't try that in Bataan, too worried about the 26 mile duration and the heat. 17:00 to 18:00 min/mile is way more sustainable.

But as to duration, I was doing weekly 20+ mile training hikes, I think my high water mark was 22 miles+ so you can def do all the duration you want. But yeah, my pulse never got above 120bpm as I recall, more in the 1-teens, so it's lower intensity for sure. But it also hits muscles and metabolic processes not well tapped by other exercises. I'd be beat after a 20 miler, mildly sore way down deep into the pelvis, so it's not bad as an exercise. But another whole bag of tricks is the foot care management, the heat takes a toll. I did OK, but the field hospital there was full to the brim, and you'd occasionally see Blackhawks scanning the course for victims, not sure if they choppered any out.

-Tom

[justiner]

I also don't see the problem with rucking itself. I could see a criticism of rucking training for sports that don't require spinal loading like rock climbing or trail running. Or I could see criticism when rucking compromises your duration. It's hard to sustain high effort exercise for very long, so if you are constantly rucking, you won't be able to push the boundaries of your cardio endurance.

The critique is with training the wrong aerobic zones. Rucking uphill has the potential of getting your HR up too high to work on an aerobic base, and that’s primarily what you want to do during well, for a lot of. To think you can shortcut training time by going up a shorter route but with added weight isn’t quite right. But TFTNA covers it under weighted carry. For a paragraph or two. In the back somewhere. For peaking.

You wanna work on endurance for endurance, that’s really all there is to it. You wanna do some specific training for a particular goal? Denali West Butt. on a guided trip? Do someweightrd carries. Just not 5x a week, 6 months out.

[justiner]

This is how “fitness influencers” make a living on Instagram gege

I would pay attention to Scott and Steve; they’re pretty anti-that and their combined resumes prove they’re not talking trash to push bs.

[shays_days]

I don't know if I would have used the word controversial. Maybe it's controversial in the sense that, as you said, it seems more like a marathon training plan. But any training regime attempts to play with effort and duration, whether it is cardio or muscle. This book swears by low effort, high duration training. I find that very deficient.

I thought the anecdote at the start about climbing Denali on a nice morning in a tshirt while other experienced slogging climbers looked on in envy was useful for clarifying the purpose of the book. The way I saw it, the book was focused on building power endurance. It was made primarily for athletes who are good at going short and fast to learn how to go long and fast, which is why it focused so hard on “low effort” zone 1 and 2 - because most climbers suck at cardio and have no aerobic base. That’s the audience.

Also the book is so specific and detailed because it’s really for athletes a higher level up. A weekend warrior like me can just follow a “go uphill more often, duh” training plan and likely over the course of many years get reasonably fast and still stop and smell the flowers, sure. Definitely good enough to have a pretty great life in the 14ers by anyone’s standards. But the book is made for people who want to optimize and track their training over 5 months to peak for a single push on the Slovak direct or do winter jagged daytrips. That’s not to say that you can’t learn a ton if you’re just doing this for fun (I did) but it’s not the primary audience.