Missouri standard - arguable class 3?

[thebeave7]

Sounds like a little more practice route finding and identifying terrain could be in order. These are skills that often seem to be overlooked, instead people seem to lean on others to guide them or a website to give turn by turn directions.
Any mountain can be dangerous or harder than advertised if you can't identifying a 'good' or safe route for your own skills.

Eric

[Jorts]

Where exactly did it feel like class 3? When I was last there it felt close to being a walkup. Not sure that "difficult class 2" is even warranted.

Exposure and climb difficulty are distinct.

*If you want to make it rowdy check out the east ridge.

[vertical_volume]

Danger and consequences of a fall is not associated with the climbing difficulty, climbing difficulty only factors in just that- climbing difficulty. if that was a consideration a lot of additional peaks class would move from 3 to 4 and a few more class 2s would move to class 3, even though there's not actually any class 3 scrambling.

[aweskamp]

Of all the 14ers I've climbed, Missouri was the only one where the exposure made me nervous. That steep section of scree on the hikers right during the ridge ascent made me very squeamish. I'm sorry this happened to you, but also reassured that I'm not the only one lol

I posed this issue on the FB group after my group climbed Castle/Conundrum last week. We did not feel the exposure there was a problem, but it seems like many others get spooked by the route. Others chimed in and agreed that Missouri gave them issues, while others thought it was a cake-walk. There were also mixed reviews for Castle/Conundrum. Think its an eye of the beholder situation.

[Istoodupthere]

I’ll haul one of those backpack blowers up there for a donation

[MaryinColorado]

As others have said, it's class 2. Exposure doesn't seem to be out of the equation entirely in the rating system, but from what I recall from what I've read in the past, exposure comes into play more so in the class 3 and above rating determinations. (In practice, maybe only class 4/5, I don't know. Seems like exposure shouldn't be a factor for a class 3 rating, but I can see it factoring in for a 4/5.)

I found the stretch to be a non-issue, personally, but I did help several people when I was coming back across. That helped me understand better what people freak out about, and honestly, the over-abundance of terrible footwear stood out, big-time. Just made the section seem way worse for people than it actually was because their footwear provided no traction/friction.

[LarryM]

As others have said, it's class 2. Exposure doesn't seem to be out of the equation entirely in the rating system, but from what I recall from what I've read in the past, exposure comes into play more so in the class 3 and above rating determinations. (In practice, maybe only class 4/5, I don't know. Seems like exposure shouldn't be a factor for a class 3 rating, but I can see it factoring in for a 4/5.)

I found the stretch to be a non-issue, personally, but I did help several people when I was coming back across. That helped me understand better what people freak out about, and honestly, the over-abundance of terrible footwear stood out, big-time. Just made the section seem way worse for people than it actually was because their footwear provided no traction/friction.

I think that that particular stretch is more mental than actual high objective danger - yes, probably as you said accentuated by poor footwear. As I said, I didn't have a significant issue with that particular section, but I certainly understand the mental factor, as I am very comfortable on solid class 3 with no exposure, but start to freak out when there is considerable exposure.

The issue with that section on Missouri is that it can feel like a small slip on the down climb will potentially end in a considerable fall. In reality, I think it would be low consequence - as I said above, it's not a sheer drop, IMO the chances of falling far enough for serious consequences are minimal. But it doesn't necessarily feel that way in the moment.

[MaryinColorado]

As others have said, it's class 2. Exposure doesn't seem to be out of the equation entirely in the rating system, but from what I recall from what I've read in the past, exposure comes into play more so in the class 3 and above rating determinations. (In practice, maybe only class 4/5, I don't know. Seems like exposure shouldn't be a factor for a class 3 rating, but I can see it factoring in for a 4/5.)

I found the stretch to be a non-issue, personally, but I did help several people when I was coming back across. That helped me understand better what people freak out about, and honestly, the over-abundance of terrible footwear stood out, big-time. Just made the section seem way worse for people than it actually was because their footwear provided no traction/friction.

I think that that particular stretch is more mental than actual high objective danger - yes, probably as you said accentuated by poor footwear. As I said, I didn't have a significant issue with that particular section, but I certainly understand the mental factor, as I am very comfortable on solid class 3 with no exposure, but start to freak out when there is considerable exposure.

The issue with that section on Missouri is that it can feel like a small slip on the down climb will potentially end in a considerable fall. In reality, I think it would be low consequence - as I said above, it's not a sheer drop, IMO the chances of falling far enough for serious consequences are minimal. But it doesn't necessarily feel that way in the moment.

I think that's a very fair assessment, and I agree, I don't think consequences of a fall would actually be bad. The angle of the slope below isn't steep enough, I don't think, and the scree didn't seem "non-stop rollercoaster" to me, i.e., I think friction would kick in fairly quickly.

[MountainHiker]

I can certainly see the discussion with both Harvard & Missouri. More on the Harvard scramble than Missouri. As others have stated, exposure is not a factor in class rating, but you certainly notice exposure more when the “path” has fallen away on one side. That is the situation on Missouri. Over the decades since I first climbed Missouri that area has seen a lot of traffic, and erosion has played a part in the current condition. The sketchy is not the down-climb, but the side-slope stretch just after with the loose feeling dirt underfoot.

Just as exposure is not a factor in class rating, the single hardest move is. I think it would be fair to call either of these 2+. We don't want to water down what it means to be class 3. We don't want someone who just did Harvard or Missouri to think the Crestone Peak or Maroon Peak won't be any harder.

[Briere]

I can certainly see the discussion with both Harvard & Missouri. More on the Harvard scramble than Missouri. As others have stated, exposure is not a factor in class rating, but you certainly notice exposure more when the “path” has fallen away on one side. That is the situation on Missouri. Over the decades since I first climbed Missouri that area has seen a lot of traffic, and erosion has played a part in the current condition. The sketchy is not the down-climb, but the side-slope stretch just after with the loose feeling dirt underfoot.

Just as exposure is not a factor in class rating, the single hardest move is. I think it would be fair to call either of these 2+. We don't want to water down what it means to be class 3. We don't want someone who just did Harvard or Missouri to think the Crestone Peak or Maroon Peak won't be any harder.

The same could be said with 2+ though. Castle+Conundrum was way more technical then Harvard and Missouri from my memory. I think the current ratings hold true.

[anderson14k]

class 2. barely. mildly exposed.

[HikesInGeologicTime]

A mountain's overarching class ratings are, as I understand it, based on the hardest move(s), typically on the easiest overall route. By that standard, Harvard is in absolutely no way Class 3. I have no doubt most people approaching from the standard route get up to that final jumble of boulders and decide to just send it, but if you continue around the boulders to climber's right until you reconnect with the ridge (as if you were going on to Columbia from there), you can then cross over to the other side of the ridge and follow a super easy-breezy (actually, the first time I did it, more like super dusty-gusty) Class 2 path to the summit. This option is way more obvious if you're coming from Frenchman Creek, since you're coming up between Columbia and Harvard anyway, but you might find other challenges at play since the only way a seemingly rational individual would consider Frenchman Creek is if they were attempting Harvard in the winter, which throws that seeming rationality into question all by itself.

Misery might very well be recategorizable (I don't care what you say, autocorrect; that is a word now!) as Difficult Class 2 - I do sorta remember that downclimb requiring more concentrated hand placement than, say, that one awkward move on Bierstadt where the boulders are just a little too far apart for someone with my short stature and poor sense of balance to make it without placing a hand for stability. But that downclimb doesn't stand out in my memories as being particularly egregious, and I was one of the people who would be in favor of upgrading Longs' class ranking because of how sketch that Trough exit move felt to me. However, from what I can recall, M's downclimb seems comparable to that one move (and it really is only that one move as long as you stay on route) on Castle that qualifies the latter for Class 2+, and I do remember it being more...interesting than anything else in the by-and-large straight-up Class 2 Sawatches, so maybe a slight uptick in difficulty ranking would be warranted.

I personally thought the crux move was mincing along the exposed, loose-stuff-on-sheer-slab between the downclimb and the true summit, which was enough to solidify that mountain as my least favorite Sawatch but definitely not enough to call it Class 3.