How many finishers...really?

[jrbren_vt]

It seems to me we are talking about the definition of the summit. Here we want it to be a spire that requires technical climbing to exclude any non technical climbers, which implies to me we are talking about an infinitesimally small area. In another thread going on here we want it to be 100's of meters in diameter to calculate how flat it is. The world is loaded with peaks like this throughout the world, there is a trekking summit and a technical summit. I always figured the 14ers finishers list meant trekking summit unless otherwise noted. I am hiker with zero aspirations for climbing anything class 4,the spire is moot to me.

[seannunn]

What ever happened to HYOH? Anyone who claims they hiked one or all 14ers should be given their due. There is no arbitrary tribunal that gets to decide otherwise.

Are we still talking about getting close to a summit, but not actually reaching it?

I would think it shows more character (to whomever, probably just to oneself) to admit to not reaching the summit, then working towards learning how to improve upon oneself to make the summit on a future trip, or just sitting with the fact that it wasn't meant to be for reasons outside of one's control.

Failure is a part of the path towards success. If we never admit to our shortcomings, we never move past them. The more audacious my trips become, the more I've failed at trying to do 'em!

When do you ever have a better time to live as the best version of yourself than on a good day in the mountains?

+1. Proud to say that I failed on El D in 2023, for a variety of reasons. Learned from the mistakes, made some other summits this summer as a result. Looking forward to giving El D another shot, hopefully next summer.
Nothing wrong with trying and failing. Actually not summitting is not failing. Failing is falling off a mountain and dying. I don't ever want to do that. Much better to turn around early.

Sean Nunn
Peculiar, MO

[onebyone]

how can the number of finishers be lower than the Culebra count? someone who claims to be an "ABC finisher" is not a 14er finisher. period.

because there are people who climbed Culebra but didn't climb all the other 53 ranked 14ers. I feel I might be missing a point you're trying to make.

This argument is irrelevant. There is no way to know how many peeps have hiked Culebra.

There is a way if Culebra has financial records. They have been charging for over 30 years. Of course there have been different owners. And some people didn't summit, but it could give you a superior number compared to any of the other 57 peaks. Do you know if Culebra has no financial records or are just guessing. This would be income and reported for taxes. The records quite easily could have been destroyed by now. Or not.

[onebyone]

I think you can easily go back 10 years just by knowing what the limit is on hikers per day over the climbing season. No climbing allowed there after July so that knocks out August and September. So figure most people are climbing it June and July.

Anyhow I think you can get some data points that might give you more of an educated guess compared to just pulling a number out of thin area. All finishers have to pass through Culebra and you have to get permission and pay to climb it.

What is the limit of climbers per day. I don't remember seeing more than 30 when I did it but I didn't actually count.

My anecdotal observation- I'm 56 and have lived in Colorado for 32 years so I know a lot of people. I only know 1 other person who finished. But 90% of the people I know have climbed at least one 14er

[greenonion]

What ever happened to HYOH? Anyone who claims they hiked one or all 14ers should be given their due. There is no arbitrary tribunal that gets to decide otherwise.

Are we still talking about getting close to a summit, but not actually reaching it?

I would think it shows more character (to whomever, probably just to oneself) to admit to not reaching the summit, then working towards learning how to improve upon oneself to make the summit on a future trip, or just sitting with the fact that it wasn't meant to be for reasons outside of one's control.

Failure is a part of the path towards success. If we never admit to our shortcomings, we never move past them. The more audacious my trips become, the more I've failed at trying to do 'em!

When do you ever have a better time to live as the best version of yourself than on a good day in the mountains?

+1. Proud to say that I failed on El D in 2023, for a variety of reasons. Learned from the mistakes, made some other summits this summer as a result. Looking forward to giving El D another shot, hopefully next summer.
Nothing wrong with trying and failing. Actually not summitting is not failing. Failing is falling off a mountain and dying. I don't ever want to do that. Much better to turn around early.

Sean Nunn
Peculiar, MO

Well put sir.

[Eli Boardman]

It seems to me we are talking about the definition of the summit. Here we want it to be a spire that requires technical climbing to exclude any non technical climbers, which implies to me we are talking about an infinitesimally small area. In another thread going on here we want it to be 100's of meters in diameter to calculate how flat it is.

Merriam Webster:

Summit : top, apex
especially : the highest point : peak

Euclid (who more or less standardized elementary geometry) defined a "point" as "that which has no part."

So yes, "summit" --> "highest point" --> infinitesimally small area.

The idea with the "flat" summits is that they feel subjectively broad, but there is still a perfectly well-defined highest point, even if that point is only millimeters higher than the surrounding surface. Finding the true high point of flat-topped summits can be tricky, leading to practices like walking around in a grid to make sure you've touched the true summit: http://www.cohp.org/faqs_and_rules.html (c.f. "Lobdellizing "). Whether or not you need to definitively touch the highest millimeter of rock to subjectively "finish" a peak is debatable in some cases, particularly flat plateaus where the true high point is near-impossible to find, but nevertheless every peak has a single, mathematically defined highest point, which is the summit.

The world is loaded with peaks like this throughout the world, there is a trekking summit and a technical summit. I always figured the 14ers finishers list meant trekking summit unless otherwise noted. I am hiker with zero aspirations for climbing anything class 4,the spire is moot to me.

Are you implying that the "trekking summit" of Little Bear is somewhere near the shore of Lake Como?

[HikesInGeologicTime]

One must always leave some DNA on the top of the mountain. For the glory of life, ya know...

Gotta make sure I'm in the clear if the Fourteener Summit Police send up a forensic team to scrutinize my claims!

What ever happened to HYOH? Anyone who claims they hiked one or all 14ers should be given their due. There is no arbitrary tribunal that gets to decide otherwise.

Well, I dunno about that last part, else the eminently reasonable HYOH reminder wouldn't need to be a reminder whenever a subject of this nature pops up...

Failing is falling off a mountain and dying.

I'd also say that falling, not dying, and having a resulting injury that does improve but persists long enough that seeking a second round of physical therapy three years after the tumble isn't exactly a rousing success, either. There is no shame in turning around.

[greenonion]

One must always leave some DNA on the top of the mountain. For the glory of life, ya know...

Gotta make sure I'm in the clear if the Fourteener Summit Police send up a forensic team to scrutinize my claims!

What ever happened to HYOH? Anyone who claims they hiked one or all 14ers should be given their due. There is no arbitrary tribunal that gets to decide otherwise.

Well, I dunno about that last part, else the eminently reasonable HYOH reminder wouldn't need to be a reminder whenever a subject of this nature pops up...

Failing is falling off a mountain and dying.

I'd also say that falling, not dying, and having a resulting injury that does improve but persists long enough that seeking a second round of physical therapy three years after the tumble isn't exactly a rousing success, either. There is no shame in turning around.

For sure Geo. No failure in getting back on THAT horse. Extra points doing that do-over

[gb]

I suspect it's a pretty high number, like 6-8K. I think a lot of people finish without submitting their name to the CMC or checking boxes on this website. It's just become so popular and the state's population is so huge.

I could easily be wrong, however. There may be a lot of people who haven't done Culebra due to the cost or philosophical reasons, or haven't done North Maroon or El Diente if they were going by the old 53 popularized on this website.

[onebyone]

I suspect it's a pretty high number, like 6-8K. I think a lot of people finish without submitting their name to the CMC or checking boxes on this website. It's just become so popular and the state's population is so huge.

I could easily be wrong, however. There may be a lot of people who haven't done Culebra due to the cost or philosophical reasons, or haven't done North Maroon or El Diente if they were going by the old 53 popularized on this website.

Your number could be spot on, but at the same time maybe less. Prob a pretty small number of finishers pre 1990 I bet. So let's use 1990-2024 and your 6k number. That would average 176 finishers a year, which that number scaling up, meaning less in the 90s and far more over the last 10 years. Using your 8k number, then that would average 333 finishers a year over 24 years with it being far lower in the 1990s and higher over the last 10 years.
Do we think there were even 176 finishers last year using the 6k average. Personally, I don't think close to that. How many finishers total before 1990. Is it less or more than 1,000?

Side note- If you didn't do the official 53 or 58 then you are out. No Culebra then you didn't finish. I really don't care about the 3k rule other than driving to the very top.

[rijaca]

Thoughts on a soccer Saturday morning (I coach a U8 boys team)...

579 peeps reported completing the CMC list of 54 14ers by 1990. 2199 peeps by 2024.

CMC list:

https://www.cmc.org/about/governing-doc ... _of-04.pdf

I know a number of peeps that have hiked Culebra that haven't and won't complete the 14er list. I would be very surprised if there were records of Culebra ascents prior to current ownership (other than anecdotal).

The summit of the mountain is the top. Personally I don't claim (checkmark) that I have hiked/climbed a peak unless I reach the top. Failure is only when you don't try.

I'm not aware that any peaks in Colorado that have trekking summit different from the technical summit.

Whoa, wait.... Lizard Head?

[onebyone]

Thoughts on a soccer Saturday morning (I coach a U8 boys team)...

579 peeps reported completing the CMC list of 54 14ers by 1990. 2199 peeps by 2024.

CMC list:

https://www.cmc.org/about/governing-doc ... _of-04.pdf

I know a number of peeps that have hiked Culebra that haven't and won't complete the 14er list. I would be very surprised if there were records of Culebra ascents prior to current ownership (other than anecdotal).

The summit of the mountain is the top. Personally I don't claim (checkmark) that I have hiked/climbed a peak unless I reach the top. Failure is only when you don't try.

I'm not aware that any peaks in Colorado that have trekking summit different from the technical summit.

Whoa, wait.... Lizard Head?

Thank you for the pre 1990 number. Probably can double that number. As a guess. We are not trying to guess the exact number here. Impossible. But maybe can get it to +/- 25% Culebra will not have summit numbers obviously. But I bet you anything that at least 4/5 summits. You're paying money which means the overwhelming majority have 14er experience. They don't won't to spend another $150 so a more serious climbing attempt. Personally I think the new ownership has records of how many paid and attempted so that's prob 7 years of data- that's not enough to extrapolate finishers but something. The question is whether the new owners got the old records or the old owners just destroyed them. People have been paying there for 30 years, at least. It's a tax issue since this is income.

I also agree with you that many have climbed Culebra who will not finish. But like I said, if we somehow had the Culebra numbers then the number of finishers can't be higher than the Culebra numbers. It will obviously be lower than the Culebra numbers. But you could establish an upper parameter on the number.

Thanks for letting me nerd out.