Mountaineering Ethics

[mtree]

My rule: Don't go hiking with people who can't handle things on their own/alone.

Closer to my rule than most. I'm willing to split from partner/party if all can handle things on their own. If not, stick together (especially when taking up newbies). Sometimes bad things happen. Remember, hiking/climbing can be dangerous.

[Veory]

Likewise. Recently split with someone on St Helens so I could go tag the summit, but it's pretty safe terrain and he used to be a mountain guide so I didn't have much hesitation. I accept the risk of continuing and if something happened to me, that wouldn't be his fault for letting me continue because I'd have no issue being up there alone.

Never leave an uncomfortable or hesitant partner of course, but splitting up when all members are of high and equal ability in reasonably safe terrain is fine in my book.

[justiner]

I think personal rules on what to do re: splitting up is fine. I think there is a major safety hole plugged up if you do state this plainly before the trip and stick to it. Being Not OK or OK with splitting up can both work.

I think some of these stories -- like that Whitney story I linked to -- have more to do with two people who are BOTH wholly unprepared that then went up. One only came back, but it could very well have been neither. In that case, I'm not sure if they should have gone up at all. The apparent chasm to have people cross to understand their abilities when faced with fairly difficult terrain is one that I have a hard time closing. It's of course, not my responsibility (I'm my responsibility) but without that problem kinda solved, this is just going to keep happening.

Maybe borrow from Spoon Theory (call it something else, I don't care) We can think of mountain objectives as having a certain amount of spoons that you have at your disposal. Maybe you're just starting out and you have 10 spoons. Bad weather, poor conditions, not the right gear, not knowing the route - those all already cost you spoons and it seems you've got only 6 (or whatever) spoons left. 10 miles of hiking is 4 more spoons. Is 2 spoons enough to complete the objective? Maybe someone like me has more Experience Spoons, maybe I have 20. a "no" from a newbie is a "sure, why not?" for me? The "sure" from me, doesn't mean it's automatically a sure for everyone. That doesn't mean even experienced people can't be caught in heuristic traps, but it makes it easy to, at the beginning, make a go/no-go call.

Anyways, just musing, I'm not an expert at prefrontal cortexes.

[justiner]

This case got a lot less gray-area'd:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2026/ ... r-mountain

The Negligence: Prosecutors argued he made nine critical errors, including:

* Failing to turn back when conditions worsened.
* Allowing her to use unsuitable gear (snowboard boots on a technical alpine climb).
* Refusing help from a police helicopter that flew over them earlier that night, claiming they were "fine."
* Leaving her without using the emergency bivouac bag or thermal blankets that were actually inside her own backpack.

A former girlfriend, called as a witness, testified that she had also climbed the Großglockner with Thomas P in 2023. She said he had abandoned her on the route at night after her head torch ran out of battery, leaving her distressed. “So that was the last mountain expedition we undertook together,” she said.

[seannunn]

Yeah, that is gross negligence.

Sean Nunn
Peculiar, MO

[nyker]

Couple interesting points mentioned here are the recognition in a court of the "defacto leader" and the precedent that may establish for the legal responsibility that person (unpaid, uncontracted) would bear and also how they cite data from their smartwatches pointing to declining physical performance.

[ekalina]

.

[seannunn]

Couple interesting points mentioned here are the recognition in a court of the "defacto leader" and the precedent that may establish for the legal responsibility that person (unpaid, uncontracted) would bear and also how they cite data from their smartwatches pointing to declining physical performance.

I have often wondered about that. I still "need" to climb Little Bear, and I would much prefer to go with someone who had been up before. I would even be willing to foot the bill for things related to the trip, but I am concerned that this might make the more experienced person believe that I was counting of them as a guide of some sort and that it would somehow expose them to liability. Heck I have even worried about the opposite situation occurring if I took someone with me on a climb who was less experienced than I am.

Of course I would never be an idiot and leave behind a climbing partner who was obviously hypothermic and probably was near death, but what if the person with me decided a few hundred feet from the top that the remainder of the route was too much for them, so I left them temporarily to make the summit, then something happened to them? Or what if I encouraged them to continue up with me, and they fell due to inexperience on class 3/4 terrain? Obviously either scenario would make me feel terrible about myself for a long time. Would I be legally liable though?

(I am thinking of consenting adults here. I fully recognize that in taking high school kids on 14ers as I did for 20 years as a cross-country coach, I was fully responsible for their safety.)

Sean Nunn
Peculiar, MO

[JSFromKY]

I have often wondered about that. I still "need" to climb Little Bear, and I would much prefer to go with someone who had been up before. I would even be willing to foot the bill for things related to the trip, but I am concerned that this might make the more experienced person believe that I was counting of them as a guide of some sort and that it would somehow expose them to liability. Heck I have even worried about the opposite situation occurring if I took someone with me on a climb who was less experienced than I am.

I haven't done any of the class 4 peaks yet, and I've been considering ways for an old guy like me to get it done. Everything from hiring a guide to joining the CMC and going through their courses so I can get on one of their trips. One thing I've looked at regarding Little Bear is the ranch that owns the land south of it - https://trincheraranch.com/. I've looked over their page up and down, and while it doesn't specifically say they provide trips up the peak, it does hint at it. And their side of Little Bear is actually the easiest route documented in very old guidebooks. They have a 3-night minimum stay at $350 a night, so it would cost over $1000. Grabbing a few other peaks from the ranch may make it worth the money, though most people here would laugh at that. I don't really care, I'm 60-something and have never been up a dangerous class 4, so it could be worth it to me. Something to consider.

[Veory]

Sounds like you two could go halvsies and then it's only $500 for a peak and a new friend

[justiner]

Talk to these guys, https://www.coclimbing.com/alpine-climb ... ine-climbs although they don't mention Little Bear, which isn't too much of a mystery.

I think hiring a guide is an excellent way to enjoy routes in the mountains safely, where you may feel your technical skills aren't up the task (or really any reason).

[JSFromKY]

Sounds like you two could go halvsies and then it's only $500 for a peak and a new friend

You actually got me thinking about how much guided climbs of harder peaks would cost. I found one guide service - https://aspenexpeditions.com/trips/capitol-peak/ - that offers trips up Capitol. It's $1800 or so for an individual, $2000 or so for two clients. That makes a 3-5 day stay at the Trinchera ranch look cheap, and you could knock off Little Bear, Blanca and Lindsey on one trip (as well as whatever other high peaks are on the ranch property) without having to tackle Lake Como road or the 4WD to get into the Lindsey TH. This is beginning to sound like less of a bad deal as I think about it, especially since there are other amenities with a stay at the ranch.